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Old Dec 20, 2016, 09:51 AM   #1
veryold
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Question Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Hi all

Did a bit of searching, but did not find anything definitive/concrete.
I'm interested if given the swing speed alone, there is either calculated or measured absolute max. achievable driver distance in ideal conditions, and all parameters of the driver, swing and ball selected/tuned to absolute optimum to achieve this distance (loft, length, weight, angle of attack, and so on).

To me, this should be an interesting topic to learn/research.

ATB TO ALL AND CHEERS !
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 10:03 AM   #2
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

If you have a perfect smash factor then a 100mph swing should create 150 mph ball speed. I'm sure there is an equation where you punch in the other parameters.
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 10:45 AM   #3
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Trackman website actually has a driver fitting optimization chart

http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/upl...ation_2010.pdf

you can see from the chart with 100 mph swing speed, a positive angle of attack (hit on the up swing) and a minimized backspin you're looking at 247 carry and 272 with roll out. with ball speed being 148mph, that's almost a perfect smash factor of 1.50
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 11:20 AM   #4
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spinaltap View Post
Trackman website actually has a driver fitting optimization chart
http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/upl...ation_2010.pdf
you can see from the chart with 100 mph swing speed, a positive angle of attack (hit on the up swing) and a minimized backspin you're looking at 247 carry and 272 with roll out. with ball speed being 148mph, that's almost a perfect smash factor of 1.50
Interesting indeed, thanks so much !

Now, a quick question: the chart doesn't show the physical driver loft (the one stamped on the driver), but instead, it shows "angle of attack" and the "dynamic loft". Am i assuming correctly that the physical driver loft can be deducted as Dynamic Loft minus the Angle of Attack ?

Cheers !
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 11:37 AM   #5
spinaltap
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by veryold View Post
Interesting indeed, thanks so much !

Now, a quick question: the chart doesn't show the physical driver loft (the one stamped on the driver), but instead, it shows "angle of attack" and the "dynamic loft". Am i assuming correctly that the physical driver loft can be deducted as Dynamic Loft minus the Angle of Attack ?

Cheers !
That makes sense, but I can't say for certain. That's almost too easy to calculate. From Trackman's website
Dynamic Loft is the amount of loft on the club face at impact. The golfer’s attack angle, how the shaft bends, how the golfer releases the club head, whether the club face is open or closed to the club path, and where the ball makes contact on the club face can all impact the dynamic loft.



So the shaft bend and club face angle plays a role in dynamic loft, so I don't think we can just say dynamic - AOA = loft of driver.

Last edited by spinaltap; Dec 20, 2016 at 11:49 AM.
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 11:54 AM   #6
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

You might enjoy this from Flightscope. You can play around with the numbers all you want and it will spit out the final distance numbers for you:
http://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 12:06 PM   #7
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

I see that gridiron beat me to it.

As for your question you can have 3 players achieve identical distance and characteristics with different lofts etc. It would be dependant on there swing.

There is no best loft etc based on your swing speed. It will be about hitting optimal numbers based on the way you deliver the coubhead to the ball.

If you look at the trackman charts you'll notice that at all swing speeds they change distances based on AOA. That is true. However that's where a tweak in loft and or shaft to affect launch and spin can help. It is true however with a negative AOA it will be impossible to get a high enough launch angle with low enough spin to optimize distance.

However if you're near 0 to +1 vs +5 that's where loft etc can make a big diff.
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 12:10 PM   #8
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gridiron View Post
You might enjoy this from Flightscope. You can play around with the numbers all you want and it will spit out the final distance numbers for you:
http://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/
I'm probably missing things here, but it's asking me to enter parameters that i want to find out, and NOT to input, no ?

My only "knowns" are:
1. physical loft as stamped on the driver head
2. angle of atack

Or maybe, the 1. and 2. can be combined into Dynamic Loft ?

i'm assuming perfectly square face at impact and center of the face, of course.
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 12:41 PM   #9
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Think you are missing the point.

You can have 2 players both with the Same digitally measured head of say 10.5* loft and both have the same positive attack angle of say +3

Both can deliver different dynamic loft even though they have same loft, same shaft, same AOA, but different swings.

Your first post about swing speed only and getting max results then the trackman charts are best. How u get those numbers can happen numerous ways with different lofted drivers etc

Also you're talking max distance in which regards? Max carry or max total (carry+roll)? Getting mad total IMO is pointless and you should always want max carry.

If I had options
1) carry 260 total 265
2) carry 240 total 280

I'd take option 1 all day every day as roll is u reliable and too many outside factors (weather conditions hole layout etc can effect roll)
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Last edited by Jasonp; Dec 20, 2016 at 12:47 PM.
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 01:55 PM   #10
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Ok, after "overheating" Google Servers for the last half hour, i have a (definitive) but intermediate finding, if any one is interested.

Instead of concentrating on the driver specs, it's the golf ball parameters that are unique and provide only one possible OPTIMUM AND UNIQUE combination as follows.

The three (3) essential ball parameters are:

1. Initial speed
2. Launch angle
3. Back spin

For a specific golfer, 1. cannot be easily increased so will leave that alone, thus leaving 2. and 3. to adjust as per following table:

Optimal distance table
Ball Speed Kmph Verticle Launch Degrees Back Spin rate (RMP)
286 9.5 to 11 2450 to 2650
272 12 to 13.5 2750 to 3200
256 12.5 to 14 3000 to 3300
240 13 to 15 3300 to 3550
224 14 to 16 3500 to 3800
208 15 to 17 3750 to 3900 my note: in "our" units, this is for 129 mph ball speed which translates to 86 mph club head speed
192 15.5 to 17.5 3750 to 3900
176 15.5 to 17.5 3800 to 4050
160 16 to 18.5 3900 to 4200

Now, the question is how to best/easiest obtain (thru driver loft and/or angle of attack) the 2. and 3. to fit the above table

cheers !
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Last edited by veryold; Dec 20, 2016 at 02:06 PM.
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 02:43 PM   #11
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Don't mean to burst your bubble but that chart is way off. Even if u wanna maximize carry. Those spin numbers are a touch on the high side. All by 500-800 too high to be considered optimal.

It's simple go in the foightscope optimizer posted and drop them 500 but leave ballspeed and launch angle the same. Carry increases by 3-5y (not the end all be all) but if you're looking for max carry that chart is way off.
The charts posted in this Wishon Article are much more accurate

http://www.golfwrx.com/62891/the-pra...-shaft-design/

http://www.golfwrx.com/wp-content/up...Man-Page-2.png
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 02:56 PM   #12
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by veryold View Post
Now, the question is how to best/easiest obtain (thru driver loft and/or angle of attack) the 2. and 3. to fit the above table
What would you consider humanly possible to create 2. And 3. Example. Can someone hit up on a ball 45° with a 0° driver?
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 03:08 PM   #13
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

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What would you consider humanly possible to create 2. And 3. Example. Can someone hit up on a ball 45° with a 0° driver?
well, with a 3' high tee, maybe
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 03:19 PM   #14
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Increasing club face angle 1 degree will increase ball spin approx. 350 rpm. Spin is typically the enemy, more spin means more drag, more drag means less distance. (though not always, you need enough spin to keep ball in the air)

Increasing angle of attack will always result in more distance (assumes if angle of attack gets too high you would then decrease driver loft and thus increase smash factor and hit it further)
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 03:25 PM   #15
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by veryold View Post
well, with a 3' high tee, maybe
So its legally not possible.

So given the golf rules, you cannot humanly generate maximized numbers.
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 03:26 PM   #16
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

And ...

I am expecting the new Callaway Epic drivers will have a higher smash factor than has been seen to date with any other current generation club. Maybe something like 1.51 ???
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 03:31 PM   #17
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctv1 View Post
Increasing club face angle 1 degree will increase ball spin approx. 350 rpm. Spin is typically the enemy, more spin means more drag, more drag means less distance. (though not always, you need enough spin to keep ball in the air)

Increasing angle of attack will always result in more distance (assumes if angle of attack gets too high you would then decrease driver loft and thus increase smash factor and hit it further)
Aaahhh, now we are talking some real business here. Thanks so much for this excellent post of yours, really appreciated

So would it be correct to say that that increasing launch angle is better done with increasing the Attack Angle, rather then increasing driver's Loft ?
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 03:54 PM   #18
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Stop searching:

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/...r%20%20fitting


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Old Dec 20, 2016, 04:00 PM   #19
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by veryold View Post
Aaahhh, now we are talking some real business here. Thanks so much for this excellent post of yours, really appreciated

So would it be correct to say that that increasing launch angle is better done with increasing the Attack Angle, rather then increasing driver's Loft ?
Yes technique is always better. As increasing attack angle increases launch and would actually decrease spin
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 04:02 PM   #20
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctv1 View Post
And ...

I am expecting the new Callaway Epic drivers will have a higher smash factor than has been seen to date with any other current generation club. Maybe something like 1.51 ???
Not legal. The max is 1.5. 1.51 can only be obtained on trackman due to the way it reads gear effect on toe hits or some crap (don't understand it but the guys on WRX explain it all the time)

The jailbreak Tech is intended we assume to help keep 1.5 smash all across the face (or bigger) legally it can't get a higher COR
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 06:03 PM   #21
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Not legal. The max is 1.5. 1.51 can only be obtained on trackman due to the way it reads gear effect on toe hits or some crap (don't understand it but the guys on WRX explain it all the time)

The jailbreak Tech is intended we assume to help keep 1.5 smash all across the face (or bigger) legally it can't get a higher COR


I don't think you have this right.

The Jailbreak tech permits more energy to be transferred to the ball, this increases ball speed and this increases smash factor. The more efficient transfer of energy is due to the increased structural integrity of the head. Less energy is wasted by having the clubhead bottom and crown flexing.

This has nothing to do with COR, which essentially is the flexing of just the clubface. The Callaway drivers have the same (legal) COR or CT as everyone else.

My point is what used to be the highest smash factor possible (The max is 1.5) has now changed.

Callaway have done themselves a huge disservice by not publishing more information on these drivers. It is no wonder their is so much misunderstanding what it is they are doing. Right now the best info available is on their patent applications.

Last edited by ctv1; Dec 20, 2016 at 06:09 PM.
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Old Dec 20, 2016, 06:20 PM   #22
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

So would it be correct to say that that increasing launch angle is better done with increasing the Attack Angle, rather then increasing driver's Loft ?

Absolutely

Think of it this way

1) Lower club loft will have less of a glancing blow so it will go farther because more energy gets transmitted to the ball

and

2) Lower club loft means lower spin which results in more carry (less drag in the air) and more rollout. (Assuming there is at least enough spin to keep the ball in the air, this minimum spin rate varies based on swing speed, angle of attack and launch angle. The previously mentioned trajectory optimization programs can help determine what the ideal spin rate is.)
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Old Dec 21, 2016, 01:58 AM   #23
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctv1 View Post
So would it be correct to say that that increasing launch angle is better done with increasing the Attack Angle, rather then increasing driver's Loft ?

Absolutely

Think of it this way

1) Lower club loft will have less of a glancing blow so it will go farther because more energy gets transmitted to the ball

and

2) Lower club loft means lower spin which results in more carry (less drag in the air) and more rollout. (Assuming there is at least enough spin to keep the ball in the air, this minimum spin rate varies based on swing speed, angle of attack and launch angle. The previously mentioned trajectory optimization programs can help determine what the ideal spin rate is.)
Hey ctv1, thanks again for your great input here, much appreciated.
i guess, i'll be looking for an 8* driver and some 5" tees in the near future, lol
atb and cheers !
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Old Dec 21, 2016, 04:18 AM   #24
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by veryold View Post
Hey ctv1, thanks again for your great input here, much appreciated.
i guess, i'll be looking for an 8* driver and some 5" tees in the near future, lol
atb and cheers !
The problem with trying this veryold is if you don't generate enough ballspeed and spin your drive will look like it literally just falls out of the sky.

As you increase your angle of attack (higher tees for example) you lower spin and typically increase launch angle.

As you lower loft you lower Launch angle and lower spin.

Everyone is after low spinwhich is not needed unless you truly wanna optimize every single last yard.

There is such thing as too much spin (ballooning) and too little spin (knuckling) dependant on SS and ballspeed. For me (around 145-150 ball speed) this is around 2000-3100 spin. The difference in a shot with 2000 and 3000 is about 2 yards carry given same launch angle...

Also the best way to control spin is angle of attack ad impact location. If you look at that post earlier in the thread of the driver face and impact locations you will see.
Typically shots below the CG have increased spin. Above decreased
Typically heel shots have even more spin for less.

The lowest spin is usually slightly for side just above the CG (we're talking Millimeters though)
Also as we decrease spin gear effect becomes more apparent (shotswill
Curve further left or right based on the spin axis)

So unless you have a Swing speed north of 115-120mph it is Highly unlikely an 8* head will work for you with a positive angle of attack (if negative or neutral then sure)
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Old Dec 21, 2016, 04:31 AM   #25
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Default Re: Theoretical Max. Driver Distance ?

@V.O
A decade ago, and more, the thrust with drivers was to combine a board "tour" stiff shaft with a 7.5 loft . Since all parameters were going in one direction this "tour "driven fitting proved to be too much for the average guy with a 85mph driver swing.

IMO, if you are going with low loft, find a suitable shaft with an active tip, that, aside from the +AoA, will assist in increasing the dynamic loft at impact.

OTOH, when you loft up,(10+) try shafts that are butt soft, mid-section firm to stiff, and a stiff tip.

This is just my personal view,so garnish it with kosher sea salt.
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