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Old Dec 26, 2016, 03:53 PM   #26
Pingnut
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

I think there is a reason why most lists have a value ranking in addition to the regular rankings.. but to me things like location, facilities, walkability, value etc. Shouldn't really factor into how good a golf course is.
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Old Dec 26, 2016, 04:41 PM   #27
Arthur Dailey
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

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Originally Posted by Pingnut View Post
I think there is a reason why most lists have a value ranking in addition to the regular rankings.. but to me things like location, facilities, walkability, value etc. Shouldn't really factor into how good a golf course is.
  • Walkability: if a course is not walkable then it is probably more expensive and there are doubts that the architect has made the best possible use of the property.
  • Facilitie: Not everyone is a trunk slammer.
  • Location: Well how far would you drive to play? Or is it worth the drive. And a course like Richmond Hill although not a favourite is successful primarily because of its location.
  • Value: How often would you play a fantastic course if the fee is $150+? What about a $35 course that is well maintained and fun to play? Although value may be the most subjective due to one's personal circumstances.
  • Scenic beauty: I agree however how would someone then rank The Old Course at St Andrews?
  • Shot values: Sorry not quite sure how you define this?
  • Diversity of holes: Agree but some courses have a theme.
  • Terrain: Goes to esthetics? I for one enjoy at least one elevated tee.
  • Routing: Goes to walkability?
  • Drainage: Show in the conditioning
  • Fairness, and fun: equals playability?
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Old Dec 26, 2016, 05:14 PM   #28
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

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  • Walkability: if a course is not walkable then it is probably more expensive and there are doubts that the architect has made the best possible use of the property.
  • Scenic beauty: I agree however how would someone then rank The Old Course at St Andrews?
Just because you can't walk a course doesn't mean it isn't the best use of the property possible. Some properties simply don't allow for walkable courses.

I find beauty in contours so TOC is one of the most scenically beautiful courses I've ever played. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder so I have no idea why this category would even matter.

I don't believe TGN can come up with a valid rating of golf courses as I don't believe there are enough people with a wide enough variety of courses played or who have played enough courses to make a really informed opinion. That said, I do believe TGN can make a VALUE rating for GTA courses.
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 02:01 AM   #29
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

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I don't believe TGN can come up with a valid rating of golf courses as I don't believe there are enough people with a wide enough variety of courses played or who have played enough courses to make a really informed opinion. That said, I do believe TGN can make a VALUE rating for GTA courses.
^^^^

I agree with all 3 points wholeheartedly.
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 03:46 AM   #30
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

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Originally Posted by AverageJoe View Post
Just because you can't walk a course doesn't mean it isn't the best use of the property possible. Some properties simply don't allow for walkable courses.

I find beauty in contours so TOC is one of the most scenically beautiful courses I've ever played. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder so I have no idea why this category would even matter.

I don't believe TGN can come up with a valid rating of golf courses as I don't believe there are enough people with a wide enough variety of courses played or who have played enough courses to make a really informed opinion. That said, I do believe TGN can make a VALUE rating for GTA courses.
Walkability should be a factor, but not tied to "use of land".

Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but I don't think many would have trouble picking the more attractive between Banff Springs and Rolling Hills. And with many raters, the cream will rise to the top despite individual preferences.

I do think TGN can come up with ratings that are valid for TGN, even if they would be different than the ratings a golf course architects or professionals might come up with. And the ratings might even turn out to be the most appropriate for us. I think "value" might be one of the least agreed-upon factors. Some people have very odd different ideas about that.
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^^^^

I agree with all 3 points wholeheartedly.
As you can see, I don't.

I'll go way out on a limb here and say we'll never reach a consensus on which factors are most important here on TGN.

Back in the days when I designed medical systems, if we couldn't get consensus from the users on an item, we would make it something they could adjust for themselves.

So.... you could set up a rating system where you rate each factor out of ten and then apply a weighting to each factor - like "playability" is worth 5, but "value" is worth 10 and "facilities" are worth 3.

That would give you a default ranking for all the courses. THEN you could allow users to set their own weightings - like making value worth 1 and facilities worth 10 and resort the list to make your own personal rankings.

Prolly to difficult to i) create and ii) understand....
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 04:01 AM   #31
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

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Originally Posted by Bellyhungry View Post
^^^^

I agree with all 3 points wholeheartedly.
Call it TGN Faves as opposed to best of anything
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 04:39 AM   #32
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

A agree 100% with both of the above posts.
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 05:11 AM   #33
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

If I base my rating system by looking at my 2 favourite courses in the Province:
Beacon Hall
Muskoka Bay

And my favorite public course in the GTA:
Eagles Nest

My rating would weight the following:
-Quality of the golf course design
-Conditioning, conditioning, conditioning
-Variety and Challenge of holes
-Visual appeal
-Service and facilities
-Practice facilities
-overall experience

IMO when it comes to the "best" value isn't a factor that I consider in the rating, at $200 a pop, none of the above courses can be said to be a good value play.
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 06:15 AM   #34
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

There are some very good points being made on here and it tells me ratings on most criteria are very subjective. One man's Augusta is another man's Annandale. Maybe that's why the results of other surveys don't always make a lot sense as it depends on personal perspectives.
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 06:40 AM   #35
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

I think that a lot of TGN'rs are 'overthinking' the process....it's only a 'snapshot' of a moment in time....i.e., things change.

Let's see how it unfolds, but let's not wait forever

Good on Dave for putting forth the initiative
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 07:40 AM   #36
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

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Originally Posted by Big Shooter View Post
I think that a lot of TGN'rs are 'overthinking' the process....it's only a 'snapshot' of a moment in time....i.e., things change.

Let's see how it unfolds, but let's not wait forever

Good on Dave for putting forth the initiative
I would suggest the OP forget about it personally, unless the end result is strictly for a value based rating for GTA courses.

Golf Advisor works in this way and it generally works well. They look at:
- Off Course Amenities
- Value
- Pace of Play
- Staff Friendliness
- Course Layout
- Course Conditions.

These criteria all tell the golfer whether a course is worth playing, not if the course is one of the best.

The reason I suggest this is because a user based rating system for ranking the best courses in Ontario and the GTA has been done many times before and always fails. Letting the average user rate for the best course ends up with crazy results that nobody takes seriously and really have no use. It would take a lot of time and have no value in the end.
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 07:46 AM   #37
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

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Originally Posted by AverageJoe View Post
I would suggest the OP forget about it personally, unless the end result is strictly for a value based rating for GTA courses.
Thanks Debbie Downer/Dream Crusher
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 08:09 AM   #38
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

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Thanks Debbie Downer/Dream Crusher
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NFGBwgjmEY
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 08:27 AM   #39
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

Quote:
Originally Posted by AverageJoe View Post
I would suggest the OP forget about it personally, unless the end result is strictly for a value based rating for GTA courses. Golf Advisor works in this way and it generally works well. They look at:
- Off Course Amenities
- Value
- Pace of Play
- Staff Friendliness
- Course Layout
- Course Conditions.
These criteria all tell the golfer whether a course is worth playing, not if the course is one of the best.
The reason I suggest this is because a user based rating system for ranking the best courses in Ontario and the GTA has been done many times before and always fails. Letting the average user rate for the best course ends up with crazy results that nobody takes seriously and really have no use. It would take a lot of time and have no value in the end.
^^^^^
Must say I tend to agree with you, it's an overwhelming task, and unless done in a very simple form like I suggested previously, where people can just add to a pre-formatted spread sheet.
TGNers can already search and find course reviews under the "Golf Courses Section already on here, or create a thread for courses not previously listed.
Another alternative would be to just go to Golf Adviser Ontario and TGNers add their views to the peoples' already there. NB they only have the five categories, which should be enough.
http://www.golfadvisor.com/course-di.../8342-ontario/
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Old Dec 27, 2016, 08:46 AM   #40
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

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Originally Posted by 4underthru9 View Post
^^^^^ Another alternative would be to just go to Golf Adviser Ontario and TGNers add their views to the peoples' already there. NB they only have the five categories, which should be enough.
http://www.golfadvisor.com/course-di.../8342-ontario/
Here are the criteria that they use:
  1. Off-Course Amenities
  2. Value
  3. Pace of Play
  4. Staff Friendliness
  5. Course Layout
  6. Course Conditions

I am starting to believe that is value may be so subjective that instead just the course fee should be listed or there should be different categories based on green fees. (Under $40, $40 to $80, $80 to $120 or something similar).
Staff friendliness is a criteria that I am willing to omit.
However I believe that practice facilities do need to be rated, for instance does the course have a range and if so is it a full or short range and is it grass or mats?
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Old Dec 29, 2016, 01:36 AM   #41
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

Here is another thread on golf course rating

http://www.torontogolfnuts.com/showthread.php?t=110508
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Old Dec 29, 2016, 03:40 AM   #42
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

A golf survey designed by "committee". Yeah, this will get off the ground in my lifetime . Criteria is getting far too granular, so in order to decide what to define, maybe we ought to talk about HOW the data will be used.

Would it be intended for the new golfer deciding where to play?
Will it be for tourists?
Will it be for west end guys wanting to play east, and vice versa?
Will it be for TGNers to get out and play new courses?

As a public golf whore, I've played every public course within an hour radius, and have my own built-in rating system, so not sure how a Golf Nut like me would need such a list. I do like it, but curious to know why.

Once you know the why, you can then build or write software to meet that need.
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Old Dec 29, 2016, 04:21 AM   #43
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

Is this a solution looking for a problem?

We have this nifty TGN thing here where one can get all the info they want for practically any course in southern Ontario and then some. We have golf rankings in Score, Canadian golf Magazine, Golf, Golf Advisor, Golf Digest, travelling golfer, Ontario golf News...
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Old Dec 29, 2016, 04:37 AM   #44
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

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Originally Posted by gimmeabogey View Post
Here is another thread on golf course rating

http://www.torontogolfnuts.com/showthread.php?t=110508
An interesting thread.

My "design" above, in which you could personally adjust the weight of each criteria and re-sort the list to meet your own tastes addresses some of the challenges. If you don't care about the clubhouse, weight it at zero. Make conditioning worth 25 points. Whatever!

One of my biggest complaints about user ratings of stuff on places like Amazon, is that some people rate things very low because the delivery was late or the product arrived damaged. That doesn't make it a bad product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synergy View Post
maybe we ought to talk about HOW the data will be used.

Would it be intended for the new golfer deciding where to play?
Will it be for tourists?
Will it be for west end guys wanting to play east, and vice versa?
Will it be for TGNers to get out and play new courses?
...
Once you know the why, you can then build or write software to meet that need.
My take on it, from the OP, is that the various annual lists we see always have some real oddities that we strongly disagree with. So this rating would be done BY the much smarter members of TGN FOR the members of TGN. In that way, it would be a list that better matched our ideas of what good and bad courses are.

Ideally, it would be locked and tied to TGN userids so we wouldn't get any riff-raff.

Given that we never disagree about anything here, I think it stands a real chance!

Actually, it sounds like a lot of work.

I used to read music reviews in audio magazines that rated both the quality of the performance and the quality of the recording separately. It could be a great performance with lousy sound, but that's okay if that's what you want.

Maybe a similar simple approach would work for golf: Quality of the course (layout, scenic, challenge, walkable) and quality of service (clubhouse, marshals, starter, conditions, pace).

edit - I'd also rate the practice facilities. That's a whole separate thing.
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Last edited by Ignatius Reilly; Dec 29, 2016 at 04:44 AM. Reason: we're talking about practice?
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Old Dec 29, 2016, 04:43 AM   #45
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

Quote:
Originally Posted by synergy View Post
not sure how a Golf Nut like me would need such a list. I do like it, but curious to know why.
People want to compare/validate their opinions with other folks that have had similar empirical experiences...same reason Tripdadvisor and Yelp are popular. To paraphrase Sally Field "You like me. You really, really like me". The problem with this site is statistically there's likely not enough active users to get a good sample size. The numbers will get skewed by the Osprey fanboi votes.

I'd take the results with a grain of salt anyway, considering TGN users voted Kawartha Dairy as the best ice cream.
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Old Dec 29, 2016, 05:49 AM   #46
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

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Originally Posted by bobby Jones View Post
Is this a solution looking for a problem?

We have this nifty TGN thing here where one can get all the info they want for practically any course in southern Ontario and then some. We have golf rankings in Score, Canadian golf Magazine, Golf, Golf Advisor, Golf Digest, travelling golfer, Ontario golf News...
I agree.

A simple search and I've always found a multitude of information on every course I could ever think of in Southern Ontario and beyond on TGN. Even better, instead of some glimpse in time, a TGN search gives me up-to-date info on things like what shape the course is in and any promos/discounts.
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Old Dec 29, 2016, 07:18 AM   #47
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

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I agree.

A simple search and I've always found a multitude of information on every course I could ever think of in Southern Ontario and beyond on TGN. Even better, instead of some glimpse in time, a TGN search gives me up-to-date info on things like what shape the course is in and any promos/discounts.
...but we need more HEATED debates (it's not even January yet!)
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Old Dec 29, 2016, 08:35 AM   #48
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

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Originally Posted by davepratt View Post
There are some very good points being made on here and it tells me ratings on most criteria are very subjective. One man's Augusta is another man's Annandale. Maybe that's why the results of other surveys don't always make a lot sense as it depends on personal perspectives.

Good on you for looking to make this happen. I'd definitely participate with my opinions.
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Old Dec 29, 2016, 11:16 AM   #49
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Default Re: TGN golf course rating

Come on Dave, let's get this thing off the ground!!
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