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View Poll Results: Worst Club in the GTA
Annandale 18 23.68%
Bantys Roost 29 38.16%
Bloomington Downs 2 2.63%
Camisle 4 5.26%
Cardinal East 2 2.63%
Castlemore 7 9.21%
Cresthaven 2 2.63%
Hornby Glen 1 1.32%
Lowville 1 1.32%
Maples of Ballantrae 4 5.26%
Richmond Hill 3 3.95%
Turtlecreek 3 3.95%
Other 6 7.89%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Dec 21, 2016, 11:45 AM   #126
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Makes sense. That being said, conditioning+layout alone determine a good/bad course for me. I can usually correctly judge a course quality by just looking at it.

Driving into Crosswinds I could tell it was a fairly nice course.
Driving into Copper Creek I could tell it was a very nice course.
Driving into Indian Wells I could tell it was a POS.

In all cases that first impression did not change after I played them.
Indian wells isn't that bad of a course for what you pay although if you're not one of the 1st groups out in the morning good luck with the 5+ hour round stuck behind all the slow paced groups all over the course. I swear that every time I've played that course it must have been an "80Yrs+ play free day". Just brutally slow.

I'd rather Pay $100 for a nicely paced round than $50 for a hit and wait game.

Bantys roost is brutal but another course not mentioned that I refuse to play at is Deerfield in Oakville. It's a way overpriced cow pasture.
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Old Dec 21, 2016, 11:53 AM   #127
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Bantys roost is brutal but another course not mentioned that I refuse to play at is Deerfield in Oakville. It's a way overpriced cow pasture.
+1 Also, doesn't 10 have a giant tree in front of the tee off .
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Old Dec 21, 2016, 12:13 PM   #128
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+1 Also, doesn't 10 have a giant tree in front of the tee off .
I don't remember to be honest but it wouldn't surprise me......lol
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Old Dec 21, 2016, 12:14 PM   #129
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Found a nice quote that best describes my definition of 'worst'. A bad course is one that disappoints because it is promoted for or promises conditions/values/an experience that it does not possess and does not provide.
Hmm. Not sure I completely agree here. I think this is essentially defining a bad value or a bad experience more than a bad "course". By this logic a course like Streetsville is a 'good' just because it sets the bar low and that just doesn't seem right. In terms of an overall rating, it is an approach that penalizes a course that tries to excel and falls short but lets a course that just doesn't care off the hook.

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Old Dec 21, 2016, 12:20 PM   #130
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Hmm. Not sure I completely agree here. I think this is essentially defining a bad value or a bad experience more than a bad "course". By this logic a course like Streetsville is a good course just because it sets the bar low and that just doesn't seem right.
It's just like the handicap system...of course Lionhead Legends is a better course than Streetsville Glen. But, introduce handicapping, and Streetsville wins the net prize.
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Old Dec 21, 2016, 12:26 PM   #131
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It's just like the handicap system...of course Lionhead Legends is a better course than Streetsville Glen. But, introduce handicapping, and Streetsville wins the net prize.
I get the reasoning, I just don't agree with it. Some things are just bad - golf courses, cars - and a relativist argument doesn't change that.
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Old Dec 22, 2016, 04:18 AM   #132
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I get the reasoning, I just don't agree with it. Some things are just bad - golf courses, cars - and a relativist argument doesn't change that.
Understand but 'bad' in many cases can be subjective, just like beauty and art are.

For instance Robert Thompson hates Lionhead Legends. Yet 20 years ago it was consistently ranked as one of the 'top' courses in Canada. Some people still greatly enjoy it and it is honestly a better lay-out than many other respected courses in the GTA that get more love because they have shorter rounds, better conditioning or are more fun to play.

Personally as stated, I try to find something good in every course. Played Bushwood 3 times this year and enjoyed every round. Of course it was near the very end of the season and twice we did not see any other golfers within 4 or 5 holes, so we had a nice quick and inexpensive round.

The same with Remington Parkview. Also played it 3 times. Twice on the Upper and once on the Valley. We much prefer the Upper but the Vallley has 2 holes that would not look out of place on most courses that charge 2 or 3 times as much.

On another thread, I wrote how much I enjoy the 1st hole at Four Seasons.

Richmond Hill is not my cup of tea, but we have played it many times primarily because of its location but can never complain about its conditioning. And that is a primary concern for many golfers.

Markham Green has some great holes. But because it is 'only' a 9 hole course and is not inexpensive, many golfers do not even consider it worth playing.

And although I have not played it in 20 years, if I remember correctly even the much maligned Annandale has 2 pretty good holes.

Pace of play, conditioning, cost, lay-out, degree of difficulty, amenities/facilities, food/drink and ambience/customer service all impact on how we 'rate' a course.
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Old Dec 22, 2016, 04:30 AM   #133
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I like and get frustrated by Indian Wells. But it is a fave regardless.

Parkshore not worth $7.99 may be true. It used to have something remotely resembling a clubhouse. Terrible conditions when I played it last year. Too bad because given the length it could be a gem. Many complain about the time it takes to play golf so Parkshore should be an option. It's accessible and challenging. Too bad it's now a dump.

My vote for worst would be Deerfield. Nothing good to say about it.
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Old Dec 22, 2016, 06:53 AM   #134
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About 3 years ago, I was working in Brampton and our work group was looking for a team bonding celebration. So instead of the typical bowling outing, we decided to go golfing at Castlemore. On a Wed. afternoon with the course to ourselves, we had 20 people playing in groups of 5. It was me, one other regular golfer + 18 "new to golf" participants. Me and the other golfer thought it was the worst golf experience of our lives...the other 18 thought is was the best time ever.

Just depends on perspective, I guess.
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Old Dec 22, 2016, 07:39 AM   #135
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Understand but 'bad' in many cases can be subjective, just like beauty and art are.

For instance Robert Thompson hates Lionhead Legends. Yet 20 years ago it was consistently ranked as one of the 'top' courses in Canada. Some people still greatly enjoy it and it is honestly a better lay-out than many other respected courses in the GTA that get more love because they have shorter rounds, better conditioning or are more fun to play.

Personally as stated, I try to find something good in every course. Played Bushwood 3 times this year and enjoyed every round. Of course it was near the very end of the season and twice we did not see any other golfers within 4 or 5 holes, so we had a nice quick and inexpensive round.

The same with Remington Parkview. Also played it 3 times. Twice on the Upper and once on the Valley. We much prefer the Upper but the Vallley has 2 holes that would not look out of place on most courses that charge 2 or 3 times as much.

On another thread, I wrote how much I enjoy the 1st hole at Four Seasons.

Richmond Hill is not my cup of tea, but we have played it many times primarily because of its location but can never complain about its conditioning. And that is a primary concern for many golfers.

Markham Green has some great holes. But because it is 'only' a 9 hole course and is not inexpensive, many golfers do not even consider it worth playing.

And although I have not played it in 20 years, if I remember correctly even the much maligned Annandale has 2 pretty good holes.

Pace of play, conditioning, cost, lay-out, degree of difficulty, amenities/facilities, food/drink and ambience/customer service all impact on how we 'rate' a course.
All fair points Arthur and I don't disagree that much of it is subjective; as soon as we introduce terms like good and bad we are talking about value judgements. However, arguing that a course isn't bad because it doesn't have any pretense otherwise doesn't seem completely reasonable to me. Saying a course was bad but at least it wasn't expensive and I finished in 2.5 hours is not the same as saying it is good.

Given the choice between playing Lionhead or Streetsville for free and with no one else on the course so pace of play is determined solely by the members in your group, I would be very surprised if many TGN members would pick Streetsville. This implies there is a qualitative difference that most of us can agree on, even if we can't always define it. Don't want to go all Zen And The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance here but it is along those lines.

And I'm very much like you, I enjoy some aspect of just about every course I play - the obvious exception having been noted here already.
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Old Dec 22, 2016, 07:41 AM   #136
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Default Re: What is the worst golf course in GTA?

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All fair points Arthur and I don't disagree that much of it is subjective; as soon as we introduce terms like good and bad we are talking about value judgements. However, arguing that a course isn't bad because it doesn't have any pretense otherwise doesn't seem completely reasonable to me. Saying a course was bad but at least it wasn't expensive and I finished in 2.5 hours is not the same as saying it is good.

Given the choice between playing Lionhead or Streetsville for free and with no one else on the course so pace of play is determined solely by the members in your group, I would be very surprised if many TGN members would pick Streetsville. This implies there is a qualitative difference that most of us can agree on, even if we can't always define it. Don't want to go all Zen And The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance here but it is along those lines.

And I'm very much like you, I enjoy some aspect of just about every course I play - the obvious exception having been noted here already.
Great post!
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Old Dec 22, 2016, 11:25 AM   #137
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What a great post to get people talking. As an east-end GTA guy my list has to include Annandale, Winchester, and Bushwood. Each of these facilities makes me feel that my money is more important to the owners than my enjoyment of their courses.
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Old Dec 22, 2016, 11:44 AM   #138
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Royal Ashburn.

I can handle everything else.
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Old Dec 22, 2016, 01:42 PM   #139
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All fair points Arthur and I don't disagree that much of it is subjective; as soon as we introduce terms like good and bad we are talking about value judgements. However, arguing that a course isn't bad because it doesn't have any pretense otherwise doesn't seem completely reasonable to me. Saying a course was bad but at least it wasn't expensive and I finished in 2.5 hours is not the same as saying it is good.

Given the choice between playing Lionhead or Streetsville for free and with no one else on the course so pace of play is determined solely by the members in your group, I would be very surprised if many TGN members would pick Streetsville. This implies there is a qualitative difference that most of us can agree on, even if we can't always define it. Don't want to go all Zen And The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance here but it is along those lines.

And I'm very much like you, I enjoy some aspect of just about every course I play - the obvious exception having been noted here already.
Thanks and I agree with nearly all that you wrote.

Just 2 (small) caveats.

Robert Thompson has basically made it clear that he would not play Lionhead Legends regardless of the price, conditions or pace of play. So given a free round on an open Streetsville course he just might take it over LL.

Then there is Cresthaven which received some votes. But for a young or beginner golfer it is just fine and would be much more fun than say Bunker Hill. So a 'better' course for them.
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Old Dec 23, 2016, 04:24 AM   #140
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Thanks and I agree with nearly all that you wrote.

Just 2 (small) caveats.

Robert Thompson has basically made it clear that he would not play Lionhead Legends regardless of the price, conditions or pace of play. So given a free round on an open Streetsville course he just might take it over LL.

Then there is Cresthaven which received some votes. But for a young or beginner golfer it is just fine and would be much more fun than say Bunker Hill. So a 'better' course for them.
Thanks for your considered responses Arthur, once again we are in pretty close alignment here.

I don't know who Robert Thompson is but I agree that there is a likelihood someone would take the "I wouldn't play it even if it was free" stance. That's why I said 'most' of us would opt for LL, not 'all' of us. In thinking about it, however, it seems likely that we could substitute a different course, say Royal Ashburn, and get Mr. Thompson's buy in along with the others who turned down our freebie at LL. Overall, the results probably would be the same - the vast majority would agree on the 'good' course but maybe AverageJoe would join the minority in opting for poor old Streetsville. The paradigm still works, I think, even though the specific example of a 'good' course may not appeal to everyone. The fact that a some outliers (haters?, contrarians?, curmudgeons?) make a different choice again doesn't make Streetsville a good course. As Sauerkraut notes, our ideas of what is good change as we gain experience, understanding and skill; perhaps this sometimes gets to the point where we call something 'bad' that most people would consider to be good.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there isn't a role for cheap and cheerful courses. I've never played Cresthaven but I believe you when say it fits the bill quite well. I played Oakville Exec, which is not on the list but is in the same price range as a couple of them, a few years ago and very much enjoyed it. Appealing to a particular market does not mean a course (or anything else) has to be bad but - to return to my original point of contention with you - it should also not preclude something from being judged as bad either.

Arthur, I've very much enjoyed this exchange of ideas; you've made me put a lot of thought into this and that has been a lot of fun. Its nice that we can challenge ideas and still be respectful of one another. I wish you and yours all the best over the Holidays and hope you have a great 2017.

Jayhawker, thanks for the complement. Enjoyed playing with you and Mark back in October and hope our paths cross again next season.

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Old Dec 23, 2016, 04:53 AM   #141
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1.Westview.....so slow and a total waste of time and money

2.Any of the Cardinal courses, including Red Crest.....unorganized and really slow

3. Richmond Hill......brutally slow

4. Nobleton Lakes.....carts only....and super slow

5. Remington Parkview......any course with power lines suck


BEST

Harbour View / Innisfil.........Silver Lakes.....Heritage Hills/Barrie
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Old Dec 23, 2016, 05:07 AM   #142
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Thanks for your considered responses Arthur, once again we are in pretty close alignment here.

I don't know who Robert Thompson is but I agree that there is a likelihood someone would take the "I wouldn't play it even if it was free" stance. That's why I said 'most' of us would opt for LL, not 'all' of us. In thinking about it, however, it seems likely that we could substitute a different course, say Royal Ashburn, and get Mr. Thompson's buy in along with the others who turned down our freebie at LL. Overall, the results probably would be the same - the vast majority would agree on the 'good' course but maybe AverageJoe would join the minority in opting for poor old Streetsville. The paradigm still works, I think, even though the specific example of a 'good' course may not appeal to everyone. The fact that a some outliers (haters?, contrarians?, curmudgeons?) make a different choice again doesn't make Streetsville a good course. As Sauerkraut notes, our ideas of what is good change as we gain experience, understanding and skill; perhaps this sometimes gets to the point where we call something 'bad' that most people would consider to be good.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there isn't a role for cheap and cheerful courses. I've never played Cresthaven but I believe you when say it fits the bill quite well. I played Oakville Exec, which is not on the list but is in the same price range as a couple of them, a few years ago and very much enjoyed it. Appealing to a particular market does not mean a course (or anything else) has to be bad but - to return to my original point of contention with you - it should also not preclude something from being judged as bad either.

Arthur, I've very much enjoyed this exchange of ideas; you've made me put a lot of thought into this and that has been a lot of fun. Its nice that we can challenge ideas and still be respectful of one another. I wish you and yours all the best over the Holidays and hope you have a great 2017.

Jayhawker, thanks for the complement. Enjoyed playing with you and Mark back in October and hope our paths cross again next season.
Thanks and yes I enjoyed reading your well thought out postings.

There is one course that I played for the first time this year, that I could probably categorically list as 'bad' but then its conditions were execrable and one of my companions said that this was due to the drought, so I will give it the benefit of the doubt and not name it in this thread.

And I believe that there was a Muskoka course, allegedly designed by an Open Champion winner whose lay-out was found so lacking that it was closed and redesigned.
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Old Dec 23, 2016, 05:48 AM   #143
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1.Westview.....so slow and a total waste of time and money

BEST

.........Silver Lakes.....
Westview always has among the best greens, yes they've become more Pricey, but not as bad value as other courses

Silver Lakes, however is BRUTALLY slow & pretty dart expensive (at or about the same price as Westview)

fwiw, I really like BOTH of these tracks
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Old Dec 24, 2016, 03:15 AM   #144
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Westview always has among the best greens, yes they've become more Pricey, but not as bad value as other courses

Silver Lakes, however is BRUTALLY slow & pretty dart expensive (at or about the same price as Westview)

fwiw, I really like BOTH of these tracks
When someone says Silver Lakes is the best in the GTA, they either work there and have a biased opinion, or it's the only track they've played. If one wants to witness a course with terrible drainage, then by all means play Swamp Lakes a week after a good stretch of rain and you'll see for yourself.

As for Westview, the hate-on usually stems from those who have a hard time posting a decent score. It's far from a waste of time and agree with you on the condition of the greens--have always been excellent each time I've played.
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Old Dec 29, 2016, 08:02 AM   #145
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happy new year to all.

I don't usually like to comment on golf courses. Simply because, I don't think I know enough about golf yet; further, rating courses is subjective based on various factors all having to deal primarily with the common denominator (you).

However, in the interest of overcoming boredom(my own), helping fellow golfers and general overall *****ing about this past year's golf rounds, I will pipe in.

I don't really have a worst experience in golf course.
I will agree with several here on some of the courses mentioned, in no particular order;
  • Turtle Creek was in a bad state this year. Greens were in rough condition, tee boxes were bad. disorganized and uninterested staff and over all condition of course i would judge as "ignored".
  • Indian Wells the course that I love to hate. It does have potential (it's difficult/challenging) but also has some really silly holes that just ruin the course. The long rounds of 5+ hours aren't helping either, especially when players don't play from the proper tee boxes.
  • Lakeview, the pace of play is absolutely silly here. I can't count the number of times I have left after 9 holes(despite getting the twilight rate), maybe the city does it this way so that they get their money and not as much play.
  • BraeBen, highest round (wind howling). Lowest round (no wind). Love/hate relationship... Still think its a dog patch thought! The only course where I actually walked off mid-round. Hasn't got much better either.
  • Hornby Glen, experience ruined primarily by their bait and switch pricing. The greens were in good shape, the fairways were below average.
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Old Dec 29, 2016, 08:47 AM   #146
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happy new year to all.

I don't usually like to comment on golf courses. Simply because, I don't think I know enough about golf yet; further, rating courses is subjective based on various factors all having to deal primarily with the common denominator (you).

However, in the interest of overcoming boredom(my own), helping fellow golfers and general overall *****ing about this past year's golf rounds, I will pipe in.

I don't really have a worst experience in golf course.
I will agree with several here on some of the courses mentioned, in no particular order;
  • Turtle Creek was in a bad state this year. Greens were in rough condition, tee boxes were bad. disorganized and uninterested staff and over all condition of course i would judge as "ignored".
  • Indian Wells the course that I love to hate. It does have potential (it's difficult/challenging) but also has some really silly holes that just ruin the course. The long rounds of 5+ hours aren't helping either, especially when players don't play from the proper tee boxes.
  • Lakeview, the pace of play is absolutely silly here. I can't count the number of times I have left after 9 holes(despite getting the twilight rate), maybe the city does it this way so that they get their money and not as much play.
  • BraeBen, highest round (wind howling). Lowest round (no wind). Love/hate relationship... Still think its a dog patch thought! The only course where I actually walked off mid-round. Hasn't got much better either.
  • Hornby Glen, experience ruined primarily by their bait and switch pricing. The greens were in good shape, the fairways were below average.
How is Brae Ben a dog patch? Also, what is a dog patch?
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Old Dec 29, 2016, 09:03 AM   #147
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How is Brae Ben a dog patch? Also, what is a dog patch?
BraeBen is a rather unique course in that there's no other quite like it in the GTA. Hate the opening two holes, and a few others, but it has some decent ones too. The par three #7 is always a treat and the only water on the course. I've played this track at least 6-7 times over the past few years and conditions have always been adequate. And the views of the 'burbs' are actually kinda cool from up there.

The stigma that it's a (or on a) garbage dump just doesn't play any more. There is no evidence of that beyond the vent pipes, so that reference is getting very old. And it certainly shouldn't be in the top 10 worst courses.
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Old Dec 29, 2016, 09:05 AM   #148
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Bathurst Glen
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Old Dec 29, 2016, 10:55 AM   #149
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How is Brae Ben a dog patch? Also, what is a dog patch?
Well as I stated its all subjective.
I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings
Brae Ben is a dog patch because you have to play it when conditions are perfect and your game is in perfect condition.
It tries to be a links course but doesn't succeed at that. The double blind forced carries are difficult if you don't know the course. It's extremely punishing with the Out of Bound areas. God help you if the wind is blowing, actually the wind is always blowing. Drainage is weak, I guess due to the limitations of the golf course design.
It was a bold plan to build a golf course on top of a garbage dump, perhaps they should of planted some more trees. The experiment continues with Brae Ben, however I would give it a C- grade.
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Old Dec 29, 2016, 11:12 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by devlin View Post


  • Turtle Creek was in a bad state this year. Greens were in rough condition, tee boxes were bad. disorganized and uninterested staff and over all condition of course i would judge as "ignored".
  • Indian Wells the course that I love to hate. It does have potential (it's difficult/challenging) but also has some really silly holes that just ruin the course. The long rounds of 5+ hours aren't helping either, especially when players don't play from the proper tee boxes.
  • Lakeview, the pace of play is absolutely silly here. I can't count the number of times I have left after 9 holes(despite getting the twilight rate), maybe the city does it this way so that they get their money and not as much play.
  • BraeBen, highest round (wind howling). Lowest round (no wind). Love/hate relationship... Still think its a dog patch thought! The only course where I actually walked off mid-round. Hasn't got much better either.
  • Hornby Glen, experience ruined primarily by their bait and switch pricing. The greens were in good shape, the fairways were below average.
  • Turtle Creek I can see (didn't play it this year)
  • Indian Wells I understand, the 'drought' really killed them this season (played once)
  • Lakeview (played twice...hadn't played in over 5 years)...always been busy, decent shape...really like playing there
  • Brae Ben...not a fan, haven't played there in 3 years
  • Hornby Glen (played twice)....I don't see what's wrong with it, moderately priced, simple layout, good pace

To each their own (which is kind of where you were going with this anyway)
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