Ball Moves at Address

[wlorcb]

In todays round of the Tour Champ. Justin Thomas(iirc) addressed his ball on the green and it moved/ He claimed that he was not the cause when he called in a ref, and they reviewed it later, and he was given a one stroke penalty.

Now, they did not show, and I do not know if he did, but if the player causes the ball to move, it has to be replaced. If wind causes it to move, it is played as it is.

So what if a player plays it as it lies, but is determined to be the cause. That would be an additional 2 strokes.

Conversely, if he replaces it, and it is determined that he did not cause it to move, that is also an additional penalty.

Would it not be better to just have the rule say play it as it lies, and then either penalty or no penalty for causing it to move?

[rulie]

Re: Ball Moves at Address

In todays round of the Tour Champ. Justin Thomas(iirc) addressed his ball on the green and it moved/ He claimed that he was not the cause when he called in a ref, and they reviewed it later, and he was given a one stroke penalty.

Now, they did not show, and I do not know if he did, but if the player causes the ball to move, it has to be replaced. If wind causes it to move, it is played as it is.

So what if a player plays it as it lies, but is determined to be the cause. That would be an additional 2 strokes.

Conversely, if he replaces it, and it is determined that he did not cause it to move, that is also an additional penalty.

Would it not be better to just have the rule say play it as it lies, and then either penalty or no penalty for causing it to move?

Didn't see the incident and haven't read anything about it, but some corrections to the above:
- if he caused it to move, it's a one stroke penalty; if he didn't replace it and played it from where it moved to, it's a total penalty of two strokes.
- if he didn't cause it to move, there is no penalty, but if he then replaces it, it would be a total penalty of two strokes.

If he is operating under the direction of the referee and was told by the referee to play it from the new spot, he would be absolved from further penalty, hence the applied penalty of one stroke.

[wlorcb]

Re: Ball Moves at Address

Didn't see the incident and haven't read anything about it, but some corrections to the above:
- if he caused it to move, it's a one stroke penalty; if he didn't replace it and played it from where it moved to, it's a total penalty of two strokes.
- if he didn't cause it to move, there is no penalty, but if he then replaces it, it would be a total penalty of two strokes.

If he is operating under the direction of the referee and was told by the referee to play it from the new spot, he would be absolved from further penalty, hence the applied penalty of one stroke.

If he does not replace it, does not dec 18/4 indicate that there is the penalty under the applicable rule(18) and 20-7c(for a total of 3 strokes)-if it is just one, then dec 18/4 is very poorly worded.

Your last sentence, I see used a lot(not just you). If the RO is an extension of the committee, and the committee may not change or ignore a RoG, how can this take place. In every case, should not the RO tell the player to play 2 balls?

[rulie]

Re: Ball Moves at Address

If he does not replace it, does not dec 18/4 indicate that there is the penalty under the applicable rule(18) and 20-7c(for a total of 3 strokes)-if it is just one, then dec 18/4 is very poorly worded.

Your last sentence, I see used a lot(not just you). If the RO is an extension of the committee, and the committee may not change or ignore a RoG, how can this take place. In every case, should not the RO tell the player to play 2 balls?

Rule 20-7c says that the penalty is two strokes under the applicable Rule (Rule 18 in this case). It is not additive - the total is two strokes. Same as the penalty statement in Rule 18.
You best read Decision 34-2/2; when the player is following instructions of the referee, the player will not be penalized for referee errors.

[wlorcb]

Re: Ball Moves at Address

Rule 20-7c says that the penalty is two strokes under the applicable Rule (Rule 18 in this case). It is not additive - the total is two strokes. Same as the penalty statement in Rule 18.
You best read Decision 34-2/2; when the player is following instructions of the referee, the player will not be penalized for referee errors.

Yes 20-7c is unambiguous.
But 18/4 has this paragraph:
On the other hand, if the Committee determines, based on all of the evidence it has available, that the ball changed its position by an amount that was reasonably discernible to the naked eye at the time, the ball is deemed to have moved. As the player did not replace the ball, he incurs a penalty under the applicable Rule and Rule 20-7c for playing from a wrong place.

This says you incur a penalty under the applicable rule AND 20-7c. I know that somewhere there is something that says the maximum is 2 strokes for any one offense.

33-1 says the committee has no power to waive a rule of golf, so a RO should not either, should they?

[rulie]

Re: Ball Moves at Address

Yes 20-7c is unambiguous.
But 18/4 has this paragraph:
On the other hand, if the Committee determines, based on all of the evidence it has available, that the ball changed its position by an amount that was reasonably discernible to the naked eye at the time, the ball is deemed to have moved. As the player did not replace the ball, he incurs a penalty under the applicable Rule and Rule 20-7c for playing from a wrong place.

This says you incur a penalty under the applicable rule AND 20-7c. I know that somewhere there is something that says the maximum is 2 strokes for any one offense.

33-1 says the committee has no power to waive a rule of golf, so a RO should not either, should they?

Not sure where you're getting your info. There is nothing in the Rules that says there is a max of two penalty strokes for any one offense.
The referee is not waiving a Rule of golf. They can make errors and errors in judgement. When such happens the player will not be penalized when operating under the guidance of the referee. How many penalty strokes were assessed to DJ at the US Open when he was deemed to have caused his ball to move, after being told by the referee not to replace his ball?
Did you read D34-2/2?

You're misreading the statement in 18/4. It does say that the penalty is applied under the applicable Rule and 20-7c, which is the same as it says in Rule 20-7c, that the penalty is applied under the applicable Rule. The "and" is not referring to a penalty for both the applicable Rule and 20-7c, but he single penalty is applied under the applicable Rule and Rule 20-7c.