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20-25 Handicap - Fitting would be needed?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Laicha View Post

    The specs and how "off" they are, are blown a little out of proportion. I've checked many sets of clubs and they've come out just fine. And frankly, the amount out of spec clubs can be are within tolerance, and aren't enough to make them unhittable. Less precise sure, but not necessarily enough to be the difference between a good shot and a bad one.
    What spec's can you measure and what is the precision of your measurement system - to what resolution can you measure.
    How precise can you measure the tolerances in a set?

    Between a good and a bad shot is like looking at 'attribute' data - everything is either a pass or a fail - pretty weak from a quality standpoint.
    Now if you use a Graded approach on a 1 to 10 scale, thereby looking at 'variable' data - I'd rather hit an 8 rather than a 7 due to precision.




    Adams XTD Ti 12.5* / TightLies 2 Ti / Super 9031 Tour / Ping WRX i20 Irons
    Ping WRX Tour Gorge / YES Natalie Putter B-CG / Leupold GX-4 Rangefinder
    Personal Best: 79, hoping for another sub 80 round before the Twilight Zone

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    • #32
      Originally posted by TourIQ View Post
      What spec's can you measure and what is the precision of your measurement system - to what resolution can you measure.
      How precise can you measure the tolerances in a set?

      Between a good and a bad shot is like looking at 'attribute' data - everything is either a pass or a fail - pretty weak from a quality standpoint.
      Now if you use a Graded approach on a 1 to 10 scale, thereby looking at 'variable' data - I'd rather hit an 8 rather than a 7 due to precision.



      Well, the other day I adjusted loft/lie for a set of Mizuno jpx900 tour. They were bang on posted specs except for the 8 iron being a half degree flat. Imo, that's not nearly as bad as it sounds in this thread.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Laicha View Post

        Well, the other day I adjusted loft/lie for a set of Mizuno jpx900 tour. They were bang on posted specs except for the 8 iron being a half degree flat. Imo, that's not nearly as bad as it sounds in this thread.
        IMO and experience , that is extremely rare. Every set of the well over a hundred that I have measured have a several variables off, not infrequently well off, as in two successive heads having the same loft and shaft flex varying from under R flex to just about X flex in same set.

        Now if people are using a crude method of measuring such as a Loft Lie machine instead of a specific and accurate club head measuring guage that is ONLY used for measuring specs, I can see why they might not identify the problem variables. A good measuring guage is expensive , up to $3000 for the better ones although a decent one can be had for under $1000, so many places don't do it right .

        TLT Dan recently commented in this or another thread on his findings and his findings are like mine . I know Dan does it right and uses the bending machine for adjustment and a quality measuring device for the detail.

        To the masses , if you are getting a set measured, blue printed or adjusted , ensure the person is using a high quality measuring specific glub guage NOT a LL machine and ask them how regularly they calibrate their machines. All good fitters will have test shafts and heads that they keep to calibrate.
        Last edited by Weirfan; Jan 11, 2019, 04:01 PM.
        "Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it happened "

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        • #34
          FYI:
          When I got my Maltby LL machine, I grabbed a 6i head and compared my own machine's measurements to that of a small club-builder's older "lesser priced" Maltby LL machine, and also to that of the Mitchell LL machine at the Kitchener Golftown. Mine and the GT machine were reading same Loft, but 1/2* Lie difference. The other club-builder's Loft was off by 2*, and Lie by 1* compared to mine.
          WITB: Sun Mountain 5.5LS
          Titleist TS3 8.5 with Evenflow T1100 White 65 Stiff
          Ping G400 LST 10.5 with NV 2KXV Green 65 Regular
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          Mizuno MP-18 MMC 4-PW with Steelfiber i95 Regular HSx1
          Mizuno JPX-900F 50* with Steelfiber i125cw Stiff
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          • #35
            Originally posted by ARL67 View Post
            FYI:
            When I got my Maltby LL machine, I grabbed a 6i head and compared my own machine's measurements to that of a small club-builder's older "lesser priced" Maltby LL machine, and also to that of the Mitchell LL machine at the Kitchener Golftown. Mine and the GT machine were reading same Loft, but 1/2* Lie difference. The other club-builder's Loft was off by 2*, and Lie by 1* compared to mine.
            So.... there's a high variance in the measuring devices too?

            I wonder if the OEMs are using the cheap devices?
            "Confusion" will be my epitaph
            ...Iggy

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            • #36
              some of you might be interested in this.
              http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/...green-machine/
              Things change.

              Ping i25, PWR75 s
              Ping i25 3w Accra Tour Z LS M4
              Ping i25 5w PWR75s
              Ping ISI 3-pw Z-z65
              Ping ISI W2, W3
              Cal i-Trax

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Ignatius Reilly View Post

                So.... there's a high variance in the measuring devices too?

                I wonder if the OEMs are using the cheap devices?
                This will do just as good without breaking the bank. Moreover 2 clubmakers using the same measuring devices may get slightly different results… And within 1* is not going to make a difference. Even Wishon says so.




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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Tintin View Post

                  This will do just as good without breaking the bank. Moreover 2 clubmakers using the same measuring devices may get slightly different results… And within 1* is not going to make a difference. Even Wishon says so.

                  http://forum.ottawagolf.com/attachme...3&d=1524482761http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/upload...2799_thumb.jpg


                  as a retired toolmaker those pics show a brilliant and affordable DIY measuring alternative.

                  in particular the top two which somehow failed to be included in my post.
                  Things change.

                  Ping i25, PWR75 s
                  Ping i25 3w Accra Tour Z LS M4
                  Ping i25 5w PWR75s
                  Ping ISI 3-pw Z-z65
                  Ping ISI W2, W3
                  Cal i-Trax

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by bl8d View Post

                    as a retired toolmaker those pics show a brilliant and affordable DIY measuring alternative.

                    in particular the top two which somehow failed to be included in my post.
                    http://www.norahbennett.com/golf-clu...and-lie-gauge/

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by bl8d View Post

                      as a retired toolmaker those pics show a brilliant and affordable DIY measuring alternative.

                      in particular the top two which somehow failed to be included in my post.
                      basic and maybe ok for a weekend warrior to use....

                      this is the gold standard used by the big boys- but it's tres cher
                      Click image for larger version

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                      I personally like this one from MALTBY , and it wont break the bank
                      Click image for larger version

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                      "Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it happened "

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                      • #41
                        optimistically we are talking about 10% of weekend warriors who would be inclined to self-mod their equipment, and that their budget is very constrained by circumstance. The LL machine and a decent puller is what most hope for, and some have.

                        The base Green Machine, without the electronics, was 5-6K 10 years ago, and was primarily used to verify the prototype from the Casting house before they got the OK to make the production run.
                        Not sure whether I would bother with the Maltby manual version, especially since it easier now with the adjustable hosel to do a in-field modification and see the immediate visual effect on the flight change, but would be of some use with irons.

                        if you don't have the means for such gauges, remember that measured bends done on a LL machine will be relative to every and each club in the set, when done as a set.
                        Things change.

                        Ping i25, PWR75 s
                        Ping i25 3w Accra Tour Z LS M4
                        Ping i25 5w PWR75s
                        Ping ISI 3-pw Z-z65
                        Ping ISI W2, W3
                        Cal i-Trax

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by bl8d View Post

                          if you don't have the means for such gauges, remember that measured bends done on a LL machine will be relative to every and each club in the set, when done as a set.
                          And with irons if the adjusted lie gives good results does it really matter what the final lie angle is? Loft is a different story. But then are all 36 inch clubs actually 36 inches depending on the company?



                          Last edited by Tintin; Jan 14, 2019, 09:50 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Tintin View Post

                            And with irons if the adjusted lie gives good results does it really matter what the final lie angle is? Loft is a different story. But then are all 36 inch clubs actually 36 inches depending on the company?



                            Exactly. I've always done all of my bending based on a L/L machine, at every golf store I have worked at. I know people who have worked on tour trucks, who own very prominent fitting studios in Europe and the U.S., and others who have worked in fitting studios and have gone off to do their own thing and they all use a L/L machine for bending both lie and loft. I have never heard a single one of them use a gauge. Golf Town used to have a gauge when I first started working there, but we threw it in the garbage. It frequently showed drivers with comically high lofts and it never gave the same reading twice. It was junk.
                            Rogue Sub Zero 9* - Diamana BF Series 60 Stiff/Accra TZ Prototype
                            Rogue Sub Zero 13.5* - Fubuki V-Series 70 Stiff
                            Rogue Sub Zero 18* - Diamana Thump 85 Stiff
                            G700 4i - Diamana Thump 90h Stiff
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                            Akira Prototype 5-PW - Fujikura MCI 80
                            Ping Glide Stealth 50/SS, 54/ES, 58/ES - Modus 105 Master's Green Wedge
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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Tintin View Post

                              And with irons if the adjusted lie gives good results does it really matter what the final lie angle is? Loft is a different story. But then are all 36 inch clubs actually 36 inches depending on the company?



                              Yes, relative lies and performing fine is ok, but when it comes to accuracy and repeatability the best use a precision measuring guage to accurately measure and the crude LL machine to adjust. There are those who chose not to, and that is their right, ( some people also measure frequency with a grip on , install a new layer of grip tape over the old ,etc etc ) there is no substitute for accurate loft, lie,bounce, face angle measurements than using a precision Club measuring guage. Guys like Harry, Dan do and most every good
                              And reputable clubmaker I have
                              met ( and ive met many) uses a separate for precision measuring. Back in the day i would call Wishon, Tim Hewitt, Cliff Baron etc and could ask for a 10.5 degree driver with a 1.5* closed face or a 9* with 1* open and be sure i got something exact meaured on their guage ( and i confirmed those readings with mine) whereas off the shelf heads were regularly off by as much as 2* and face angles a whatever .

                              Toneach his own, consumers have the option to choose what they like. I'd use guys like Dan or Harry before most, in fact after selling my machines, did use Dan to adjust my TLT heads...bent using his Maltby LL machine, measured to ensure accuracy using his precision club measuring guage, but hey I ( like Dan) am anal and expect a job to be done correctly and precisely. Not everyone cares holds the same standards as guys like Dan/Harry etc.

                              Ben ( Lowpost42) used a True Blue = the most accurate LL machine and he had his calibrated to 1/4* accuracy and maintained that....he was/is a high quality assembler as well and his measurements for loft and lie using that expensive machine were always good.
                              "Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it happened "

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                              • #45
                                Weirfan

                                Hi Peter. Don't get me wrong as I have a tremendous amount of respect for the people you stated above and using Dan has an example is an exception to the rule as he fits lies with specific lengths therefore his lie measurements have to be bang on.
                                But aside from Dan things have evolved and knowing a specific measurement is a not an absolute must. I am willing to bet that Phatchrisrules or others could fit me and others perfectly without ever measuring a single club . With the advent of launch monitors
                                I could get fitted just as shown below without ever knowing a simple measurement. Adjust each club's lie angle for ideal ball flight and adjust loft' angles for ideal gap separation between each club. Moreover with the radars measuring spin numbers et al does it really matter if a driver has 13*or 9* degree of loft if the results from the fitting indicate an ideal fit?

                                Comment



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