Should city’s publicly owned golf courses be repurposed for affordable housing?

[jm90]

If your going to try to close the muni golf courses around Toronto then you might as well try to close many of the ball parks and soccer fields around the city too. These golf courses are not going anywhere anytime soon. I live close to Tam O Shanter and on a daily basis it’s always busy. I’m sure Don Valley, Dentonia and Humber Valley are also just as busy. I don’t even think you can build where Don Valley is because it’s in a ravine.
I know the whole saying that golf courses are wasted green space and I whole heartily disagree. This space is used but people of all ages. And it’s affordable. A great way to keep seniors active as well. This woman who wants to make these golf courses housing is an idiot. Plus... let’s be realistic here. There is no such thing as affordable housing anymore...

Yea, I'm curious about the rental prices of these potential "affordable homes".

[drewharvie]

I did not read the entire thread, so if this is what someone else said, I apologize!

But, I think municipal golf courses in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto and Montreal should look towards the CommonGround (Denver), Winter Park (Orlando) and Memorial Park (Houston) models for inspiration.

Especially in Canada, where our cost of living is higher than those three cities, we should look at turning 18 hole courses into 9 hole, affordable options like Winter Park or Sweetens Cove, and turn the other 9 holes into a short course for juniors (like CommonGround, where they have a childrens par 3 course). The biggest stigma's in golf is it's expensive and time consuming; this eliminates both. Likely, it brings the community in more too, and eliminates the debate like this because more people would be involved

[Fore Warned]

I spoke with the person in charge of Toronto munis at the Golf Show today about the impending report on the future of Toronto's municipal golf courses.

It is expected that the report will be brought forward to council in the very near future.

He confirmed that the report is looking strictly at future options around service delivery models. Without going into details, he said the recommendations aim to reduce the number of contractors by consolidating supplier services. Expanding programs to broaden user base and operating periods is another.

He categorically denied this review process as considering land use changes - as in affordable housing, or any other form of residential development. He stressed that the courses are on land zoned as recreational, with most being designated as flood plain, and as such not available for use as non recreational purposes.

He agreed the user survey method, i.e. leaving survey cards in inconspicuous places around the clubhouse was disappointing and ineffectual.

[jm90]

I spoke with the person in charge of Toronto munis at the Golf Show today about the impending report on the future of Toronto's municipal golf courses.

It is expected that the report will be brought forward to council in the very near future.

He confirmed that the report is looking strictly at future options around service delivery models. Without going into details, he said the recommendations aim to reduce the number of contractors by consolidating supplier services. Expanding programs to broaden user base and operating periods is another.

He categorically denied this review process as considering land use changes - as in affordable housing, or any other form of residential development. He stressed that the courses are on land zoned as recreational, with most being designated as flood plain, and as such not available for use as non recreational purposes.

He agreed the user survey method, i.e. leaving survey cards in inconspicuous places around the clubhouse was disappointing and ineffectual.

That's good to know.

[Bobogo]

DIdn't know they used to groom DV for cross country skiing. I've always said it should be used in the winter. Lack of snow is a problem though.

On the other hand, they can create a skating trail in parts of the course like they have in other areas of the city.

Colonel Samuel Smith Skating Trail, The Bentway, Richmond Green etc.



Unfortunately our city politicians don't know how to put their thinking caps on. They like to create new and much more expensive things rather than use and improve what we already have.

For eg. Downsview Park at 300 acres was supposed to be a jewel of a park like NYC Central park but it just sits there while nothing happens. Downsview has transit, it has parking, it's accessible to more ppl (sitting closer to the middle of the greater GTA) and can service way more ppl being 15 times the size of RAIL DECK PARK.

Meanwhile City council wants to build the RAIL DECK PARK (21 acres) over the rail lands at a price 20 or 50 times more expensive (cost of RAIL DECK PARK is 1.66 BILLION as of Nov2017 - we know that number will likely easily be double that).

My 2 cents I go to Downsview Park once a week. It's like parks I went to as a kid Thompson and Morningside Park with less trees. To me parks are places of opportunity with limited facilities and people bring things to do.

Winter Downsview has one of the best toboggan hills, plenty of space for cross country skiing. I'd make the pond skate-able but it will never happen. Summer biking, organic farm, bbqs, hiking/walking new kids playground built last year. Concerts and some festivals.

I wish they'd move the marathons and charity bikes event there and get them off the city streets and DVP.

Not sure what else a park is supposed to offer as far as no direct out of pocket cost amenities and entertainment.

[Lemonaid]

Welfare bums are taking over the city - thanks to Mayor and Council... They may as well take the golf courses... I suspect golfers are leaving too if they can. We did. And golf in Niagara is pretty much free.

[Ignatius Reilly]

My 2 cents I go to Downsview Park once a week. It's like parks I went to as a kid Thompson and Morningside Park with less trees. To me parks are places of opportunity with limited facilities and people bring things to do.

Winter Downsview has one of the best toboggan hills, plenty of space for cross country skiing. I'd make the pond skate-able but it will never happen. Summer biking, organic farm, bbqs, hiking/walking new kids playground built last year. Concerts and some festivals.

I wish they'd move the marathons and charity bikes event there and get them off the city streets and DVP.

Not sure what else a park is supposed to offer as far as no direct out of pocket cost amenities and entertainment.

There are more charity runs and bike events than Downsview can handle. 2 big marathons, and then a lot of 5 and 10k runs for various charities.

Marathons compete with each other for participants. People want to go to London, NYC, Boston, Chicago and make a short or long vacation out of it.

No one wants to come to Downsview for a marathon. They want to go past interesting stuff, like the waterfront, SkyDome (or whatever), neighbourhoods, Yonge St. (longest street in the world) - they want stuff they can look at for enjoyment and distraction. And they (and their families) want to stay near the race so they can walk or transit to it, and then go out for lunch or dinner nearby. So that means.... downtown.

Other than that, I agree with your points about Downsview - it has a real use and function in the city's park system.

And once more, I'll mention that parks cost money to maintain, just like golf courses. I bought some discs last month and am looking forward to trying out the disc golf course in Sunnybrook park. I used to veer off course running thru their to check out the archery range below the Science Centre. I suspect our taxes fund both of those diversions, as well as the fire pits and picnic tables and washrooms, etc., etc., etc.

So why not fund a little golf too?

[Weirfan]

I spoke with the person in charge of Toronto munis at the Golf Show today about the impending report on the future of Toronto's municipal golf courses.

It is expected that the report will be brought forward to council in the very near future.

He confirmed that the report is looking strictly at future options around service delivery models. Without going into details, he said the recommendations aim to reduce the number of contractors by consolidating supplier services. Expanding programs to broaden user base and operating periods is another.

He categorically denied this review process as considering land use changes - as in affordable housing, or any other form of residential development. He stressed that the courses are on land zoned as recreational, with most being designated as flood plain, and as such not available for use as non recreational purposes.

He agreed the user survey method, i.e. leaving survey cards in inconspicuous places around the clubhouse was disappointing and ineffectual.

this is good news and I am hoping that this turns out to be true.
Not to discredit the individual you spoke to but my retired Friend who works at a Muni was working the booth one day and said he was provided with notice on what to do and say if the topic was brought up. Essentially, play dumb, say nothing .

[paperclip]

Absolutely not; we will never have enough "affordable housing". And please define " affordabe housing". My fear is they will turn into slums and havens for criminals anyway.

[Pimento Cheese]

They're really talking about lazy, band-aid solutions to a problem they don't want to address.

The problem isn't that there isn't enough land for affordable housing. The problem is that the city and province have let developers and landlords run roughshod over them and created a rental housing crisis that has a serious impact on affordable options in the city.

I don't believe for a second that if the shuttered the munis that all that land would be used for affordable housing. A small portion, at best. You're more likely to see much or most of that land used for condo developments. The city is more likely to go for the windfall than the altruistic vision.

[Bullwinkle]

the City has lots of money to spend on parks, the 2 Billion they plan to spend on the Rail Deck Park is proof of that

[bl8d]

Golf courses turned into homeless housing .
Hmmm, of Moe Norman it was said he slept in Bunkers.

https://moenorman.org/2017/05/10/the-atomic-precision-of-moe-norman/

[Bobogo]

There are more charity runs and bike events than Downsview can handle. 2 big marathons, and then a lot of 5 and 10k runs for various charities.

Marathons compete with each other for participants. People want to go to London, NYC, Boston, Chicago and make a short or long vacation out of it.

No one wants to come to Downsview for a marathon. They want to go past interesting stuff, like the waterfront, SkyDome (or whatever), neighbourhoods, Yonge St. (longest street in the world) - they want stuff they can look at for enjoyment and distraction. And they (and their families) want to stay near the race so they can walk or transit to it, and then go out for lunch or dinner nearby. So that means.... downtown.

Other than that, I agree with your points about Downsview - it has a real use and function in the city's park system.

And once more, I'll mention that parks cost money to maintain, just like golf courses. I bought some discs last month and am looking forward to trying out the disc golf course in Sunnybrook park. I used to veer off course running thru their to check out the archery range below the Science Centre. I suspect our taxes fund both of those diversions, as well as the fire pits and picnic tables and washrooms, etc., etc., etc.

So why not fund a little golf too?

I spoke to Canada Lands that oversees Downsview Park

I was reminded to consider the park is only 20 years old and is evolving and developing. Basically a baby compared to other parks. I was told more improvements coming.

As mentioned they do host a lot of charity and biking and running events schedule is full weekends during the good weather seasons.

I'm not a marathoner I'd never of think of a lot people travelling from far away for a marathon unless I was professional earning sponsorship and prize money. What per cent-age of amateurs in Toronto marathon are travelling to compete from more than a few hours away? I also didn't know that marathoners are expecting eye candy when running 3 hours. I thought the focus would be on the course conditions, body mind and heart.

Until something is done about the labour costs at municipal golf courses they will continue to disappoint and be over priced in addition questionable customer service. I'm 15 minutes away from Don Valley and Humber Valley in the last 6 years been to each once.

One solution could be like most of the big hockey arenas I work with keep the courses city owned but managed by a third party sports facility management company. Try it on a 2 year contract and see if things improve.

[Ignatius Reilly]

The 5 city courses have already outsourced some of their operations. I'm not sure how much they'd save if they outsourced the rest. Some, for sure. Enough to affect green fees by more than a dollar? I don't know.

"golf course assets and turf are maintained by the City; green fees are set by City Council, while ticket sales, golf cart rentals, pro shops, lessons and programs as well as food and beverage operations are contracted out"

As for marathons, my group of 4 that used to run together have done maybe 35 between us, with 2 or 3 of those in Toronto. It's a great opportunity to have a focus for a short vacation somewhere. We've gone to Vegas, NYC, Chicago, Sacramento, Philly, Boston, Burlington Vt.,.... and Massey ON!

Dinners and lunches and downtown hotel prices and touristy stuff... they all add up to bringing $$ to the cities.

Serious contenders may look at course conditions. Toronto Waterfront is seen as appealing for it's flatness which makes it a good place to try to qualify for Boston if you're close to the limit, so people will travel here for that.

[IrishGuy1979]

Report on this was released during the week - http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgen...m=2020.GL15.14

Report recommends two-year extensions of operating contracts (with a 3rd option year), then reevaluating the situation afterwards.

Courses played is up 6% from this time last summer

The 2020 golf operating season was significantly impacted by COVID-19, with the total rounds being played seeing significant increase. This is in line with the industry, which has been positively impacted by COVID-19 restrictions on other recreational activities. As of August 21 2020, City operated sites had seen 92,242 rounds played. This is 5,317 more rounds played compared to 2019 during the same period, representing an approximate 6% increase in play. The full financial picture from the season is yet to be determined. It is also yet to be determined if this single year growth will see lasting effects on participation.