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Public meeting on Toronto city courses

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  • Originally posted by kcirtap View Post
    My take-away's from the meeting
    -Overwhelming support for Toronto / City golf
    -Heavy hitters on call include Bob Weeks / Lorne Rubenstein / Kevin Thistle
    -Cool ideas were Vancouver investing in munis with big return (tees and greens only) and golf governing bodies funding and providing clubs / free lessons via learn to play and access programs
    -Potential for corporate sponsors to lift state of properties and invest in facilities
    -Councilors realizing golf assets
    -Potential for more golf facilities and further investment in game
    -Noted largest participation sport in Canada by far
    -Age range is 5-95 years old
    -Particular good for seniors and all abilities
    -18 holes will stay at Dentonia
    -Awareness of city owned but leased out properties Centennial and Royal Woodbine
    -Strong womens league at Dentonia made it difficult not to support / goes against elitest / rich white golf stigma
    -Committee addressed above stigma as untrue
    -Golf runs at break-even whereas most parks and rec activities run at cost recovery, which could be 25-50%, was danced around that golf supports other rec activities
    -Will be further need to enhance non-golf access either in off season or via trail access, cited Scotland all access on Sundays where course is closed and freely open to the public

    I left hopeful golf will be a focus of investment to grow and bring added prominence to properties
    Think environmental and special interests may leave alone given powerful presence and support on the call - I'd be really surprised if these interests came back to try to attack golf for repurpose


    Maybe big sky, but Torrey Pines is a Muni, could Don Valley not host an LPGA?

    I only know of one course in Scotland that is closed on Sunday (it's The Old Course); I don't believe it's prevalent throughout the country.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by kcirtap View Post
      -Cool ideas were Vancouver investing in munis with big return (tees and greens only) and golf governing bodies funding and providing clubs / free lessons via learn to play and access programs
      Who in Vancouver is investing in the muni's?
      All 3 Vancouver muni's are always busy and packed year round. The City of Vanc....is so underfunded and heavy in debt and doesn't have any money to do the multi million projects to conduct drainage work at all 3 muni's.

      I am unaware of any private funding directed towards the 3 Vanc muni's and heard of any free clinics/lessons.

      The 2 City of Burnaby muni's are also packed year rd....they spent the millions required to do the drainage work at both courses several years ago....the 2 courses are some of the driest public courses here in the winter....few public courses here have good/ok drainage in the winter.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by kcirtap View Post
        Maybe big sky, but Torrey Pines is a Muni, could Don Valley not host an LPGA?
        I realize few clubs/courses want to host a LPGA event.
        IMO....Don Valley would be a huge letdown for the gals and I doubt DV would make the litmus test to host a LPGA event.

        Besides....there is not enough space/room at DV for the required infrastructure and equipment to lost a LPGA event.
        Where would the women practice and where would the spectator parking occur.....Yorkdale Mall is always busy, etc.

        It's a shame Golf Canada hasn't been able to negotiate Hamilton or St Georges into the CWO rotation....yes.....the LPGA did play at St. Georges...but that was 4 decades ago.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by kcirtap View Post
          My take-away's from the meeting
          -Overwhelming support for Toronto / City golf
          -Heavy hitters on call include Bob Weeks / Lorne Rubenstein / Kevin Thistle
          -Cool ideas were Vancouver investing in munis with big return (tees and greens only) and golf governing bodies funding and providing clubs / free lessons via learn to play and access programs
          -Potential for corporate sponsors to lift state of properties and invest in facilities
          -Councilors realizing golf assets
          -Potential for more golf facilities and further investment in game
          -Noted largest participation sport in Canada by far
          -Age range is 5-95 years old
          -Particular good for seniors and all abilities
          -18 holes will stay at Dentonia
          -Awareness of city owned but leased out properties Centennial and Royal Woodbine
          -Strong womens league at Dentonia made it difficult not to support / goes against elitest / rich white golf stigma
          -Committee addressed above stigma as untrue
          -Golf runs at break-even whereas most parks and rec activities run at cost recovery, which could be 25-50%, was danced around that golf supports other rec activities
          -Will be further need to enhance non-golf access either in off season or via trail access, cited Scotland all access on Sundays where course is closed and freely open to the public

          I left hopeful golf will be a focus of investment to grow and bring added prominence to properties
          Think environmental and special interests may leave alone given powerful presence and support on the call - I'd be really surprised if these interests came back to try to attack golf for repurpose


          Maybe big sky, but Torrey Pines is a Muni, could Don Valley not host an LPGA?

          Thanks for the insight.

          Fortunately there are no rules limiting the number of golf balls you can carry during a match!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mr22putt View Post
            Who in Vancouver is investing in the muni's?
            All 3 Vancouver muni's are always busy and packed year round. The City of Vanc....is so underfunded and heavy in debt and doesn't have any money to do the multi million projects to conduct drainage work at all 3 muni's.

            I am unaware of any private funding directed towards the 3 Vanc muni's and heard of any free clinics/lessons.

            The 2 City of Burnaby muni's are also packed year rd....they spent the millions required to do the drainage work at both courses several years ago....the 2 courses are some of the driest public courses here in the winter....few public courses here have good/ok drainage in the winter.
            It was the former head of Parks and Rec for Vancouver who said that - Malcolm Bromley - he retired a couple of years ago.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by IrishGuy1979 View Post

              It was the former head of Parks and Rec for Vancouver who said that - Malcolm Bromley - he retired a couple of years ago.
              Bob Weekes said that too
              Everybody loves Bob!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bosco View Post
                I like the infrastructure angle - I think they mean access and trails. Personally I don’t want any more paved trails. Have spent years mountain biking on the Don valley trails which initially came about just cause people rode n cleared the natural paths. a natural path if well maintained ties in so much better to the environment.
                Back to infrastructure - are you guys aware of the waste water, gas lines, etc that run along the valley floors - that’s what I think of when I hear the word infrastructure linked to our valley system.
                In our area the city put down about a 6 inch layer of wood chips/mulch a few years ago and top it up annually. It works a charm. A nice, soft, and dry pathway that is also environmentally friendly. And far less expensive than paving/asphalt/concrete.

                I wouldn't mind seeing it tried at some golf courses.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by kcirtap View Post
                  My take-away's from the meeting
                  -Overwhelming support for Toronto / City golf
                  -Heavy hitters on call include Bob Weeks / Lorne Rubenstein / Kevin Thistle
                  -Cool ideas were Vancouver investing in munis with big return (tees and greens only) and golf governing bodies funding and providing clubs / free lessons via learn to play and access programs
                  -Potential for corporate sponsors to lift state of properties and invest in facilities
                  -Councilors realizing golf assets
                  -Potential for more golf facilities and further investment in game
                  -Noted largest participation sport in Canada by far
                  -Age range is 5-95 years old
                  -Particular good for seniors and all abilities
                  -18 holes will stay at Dentonia
                  -Awareness of city owned but leased out properties Centennial and Royal Woodbine
                  -Strong womens league at Dentonia made it difficult not to support / goes against elitest / rich white golf stigma
                  -Committee addressed above stigma as untrue
                  -Golf runs at break-even whereas most parks and rec activities run at cost recovery, which could be 25-50%, was danced around that golf supports other rec activities
                  -Will be further need to enhance non-golf access either in off season or via trail access, cited Scotland all access on Sundays where course is closed and freely open to the public

                  I left hopeful golf will be a focus of investment to grow and bring added prominence to properties
                  Think environmental and special interests may leave alone given powerful presence and support on the call - I'd be really surprised if these interests came back to try to attack golf for repurpose


                  Maybe big sky, but Torrey Pines is a Muni, could Don Valley not host an LPGA?

                  Thanks. That seems like an excellent outcome.
                  And thanks to those three 'big' names for their support.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by kcirtap View Post
                    My take-away's from the meeting
                    -Overwhelming support for Toronto / City golf
                    -Heavy hitters on call include Bob Weeks / Lorne Rubenstein / Kevin Thistle
                    -Cool ideas were Vancouver investing in munis with big return (tees and greens only) and golf governing bodies funding and providing clubs / free lessons via learn to play and access programs
                    -Potential for corporate sponsors to lift state of properties and invest in facilities
                    -Councilors realizing golf assets
                    -Potential for more golf facilities and further investment in game
                    -Noted largest participation sport in Canada by far
                    -Age range is 5-95 years old
                    -Particular good for seniors and all abilities
                    -18 holes will stay at Dentonia
                    -Awareness of city owned but leased out properties Centennial and Royal Woodbine
                    -Strong womens league at Dentonia made it difficult not to support / goes against elitest / rich white golf stigma
                    -Committee addressed above stigma as untrue
                    -Golf runs at break-even whereas most parks and rec activities run at cost recovery, which could be 25-50%, was danced around that golf supports other rec activities
                    -Will be further need to enhance non-golf access either in off season or via trail access, cited Scotland all access on Sundays where course is closed and freely open to the public

                    I left hopeful golf will be a focus of investment to grow and bring added prominence to properties
                    Think environmental and special interests may leave alone given powerful presence and support on the call - I'd be really surprised if these interests came back to try to attack golf for repurpose


                    Maybe big sky, but Torrey Pines is a Muni, could Don Valley not host an LPGA?

                    Thanks for that.

                    Good news that Weeks/Thistle/Rubenstein were there. Those guys are pros and could make points that would be relevant and easily understood by council.

                    DV ain't hosting nothing. 100% chance of zero for that.

                    It's way too short and way too small for 'taters. (SPEC 'taters, that is).

                    Also way too lousy in almost every possible way.

                    Despite that, it's a great resource and a fun course to play for average joes, which is what munis should aim for.
                    "Confusion" will be my epitaph
                    ...Iggy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ignatius Reilly View Post



                      DV ain't hosting nothing. 100% chance of zero for that.

                      .
                      This idea is so laughable and ridiculous that it had had to be a bad joke or someone who has never seen/played the course.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by kcirtap View Post
                        I left hopeful golf will be a focus of investment to grow and bring added prominence to properties
                        Think environmental and special interests may leave alone given powerful presence and support on the call - I'd be really surprised if these interests came back to try to attack golf for repurpose
                        Despite the feel-good glow coming out of this meeting and the stature and eloquence of those representing golf interests, the all important recommendations coming out of this meeting are at odds with the sentiments expressed above and remain extremely worrisome.

                        The recommendations put forward by Mike Layton call for the Parks Manager to "advance the implementation of the Parkland and Ravine Strategies on the City-owned golf courses, regarding ravine access and trail connections." and to "expand complementary in-season programming aligned with Indigenous communities' and local communities' priorities on the City-owned golf courses."

                        These additional motions may look innocuous enough to a casual observer, but if you read the policy documents referred to, its scary stuff when it comes to the types of things that are expected in the way of public access to existing lands in ravines.

                        Since this meeting, I communicated with Councilor Layton to ask why he proposed that recommendation and what he saw as the practical implications.

                        His answer is repeated verbatim below.....

                        "I am simply seeking to ensure that the next steps in this process are considering all options to keep the space available to as many people as possible and not making the process too narrow in scope. I think my motions keep alternative options top of mind without prescribing an outcome while allowing local voices and Indigenous communities an opportunity to be directly consulted.

                        I leave it to staff to respond to concerns about their process and your how we can ensure all voices are being considered before the future of these sites are determined, as well as the goals of the process itself."

                        I also contacted John Filion's office with the same line of questioning, (as he has expressed interest in reducing the number of holes at DV and connecting Earl Bales park to the Hogg's Hollow spaces) and got this...

                        "In the short term, if this holds up at Council, not much is going to change the golf operations.

                        In the long term, there will still be the debate in some cases about trail connections – how many are possible without any reconfiguration, how many are possible with minor tweaking of golf course configuration, and which ones would require significant repurposing of space.

                        Our preference for Don Valley would be to enhance trail connections with only minor tweaks of the course at most – but until this has been studied, and ultimately discussed further with the community, its tough to know exactly what we may eventually be dealing with."

                        I really get the feeling that people don't appreciate the implications of the details in recommendations going to Council and how Council members see them as continuing this debate. If they go forward as set, out I think many golfers who though this debate was largely over with, will feel duped when these issues come back on the table, as mandated by the recommendations.

                        Certainly that is how two Councilors see these. This review and the Committee meeting has not resolved anything, with the exception of a minor face saving tweak to Donalda.

                        If I was a trails advocate, I would say, round one goes to us.

                        If this moves forward as set out, what will the headlines be the day after these recommendations are passed?

                        My bet is it will be something like, "Teeing up for taking a slice out of Toronto's golf courses".

                        I really hope I am wrong.







                        Fortunately there are no rules limiting the number of golf balls you can carry during a match!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Weirfan View Post

                          This idea is so laughable and ridiculous that it had had to be a bad joke or someone who has never seen/played the course.
                          Why not? Humber Valley hosted an all-abilities championship
                          Don valley is 6200 yards and the property is massive and central
                          https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf...dscorecard.htm

                          11. What tees do the LPGA Tour players compete from each week?
                          The LPGA Tour sets up its own tees at each tournament stop. The average yardage for an LPGA Tour golf course is between 6,200 and 6,600 yards.

                          The property has views between 9/18/17/16, even right side 14 is spacious, same with 12 and 11
                          On the front behind 8 lots of space
                          on par 5 6th same, as well as between 3 and 6 and even right side 4 and 5 is a nice sandwich
                          https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/up..._donvalley.pdf

                          Oh yah, here is a quote from a leader in golf in Canada
                          "Don Valley could absolutely hold an LPGA event. Great suggestion."

                          oh and you are?.....

                          If a title sponsor plus affiliates drop say $1-$3mm which is not much for a big company DV would be sick

                          Comment


                          • This is a nice fantasy but there are just too many holes that would never work. 1, 9, 18 for starters. DV may be 6200 yards from the tips (maybe) but too much of that yardage is concentrated in the holes north of the 401. The rest is claustrophobic and almost pitch n putt for players of the calibre you are imagining. No chance.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by midlifecrisis View Post
                              No chance.
                              x 1,000,000

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by midlifecrisis View Post
                                This is a nice fantasy but there are just too many holes that would never work. 1, 9, 18 for starters. DV may be 6200 yards from the tips (maybe) but too much of that yardage is concentrated in the holes north of the 401. The rest is claustrophobic and almost pitch n putt for players of the calibre you are imagining. No chance.
                                Agree, especially if they put trails through it.

                                Fortunately there are no rules limiting the number of golf balls you can carry during a match!

                                Comment

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