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Transgendered and the modern era in golf

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  • Transgendered and the modern era in golf

    Ok. Here its is. I am looking for some respectful assistance in dealing with a "situation" at our club. We have a male member who is transitioning as a female and might enter our club championship as a Lady. Now everyone sit down and get chillaxed. We can't be the first club where this issue has arisen. What I am looking for is some respectful guidance in dealing with this. Does any other club member have written guidance in modernising our rules for entry. I have sent an e mail to our Zone chair and asked if the Provincial body BCGA or Golf Canada has any written guidance as well.

    Modernising golf indeed!

  • #2
    II personally think that you are doing the right thing in approaching governing bodies for advice.

    in the absence of any substantial assistance from them, perhaps look to what other Sports Associations are doing as a guide. For example, I believe that the Olympics mandates that males transitioning to females must have a maximum testosterone level before they can compete. That should be something the individual can get as they would probably be monitoring hormone levels during the transition. ( Hopefully I'm not being ignorant to the process) question is , do you want to ask for that or a doctors acknowledged note or is that too much to be asking for ?

    I dont want this to be misinterpreted and it might be ill advised if you dont know the person...but Have you asked the individual if they are entering with the goal to win, or simply entering because that is the division they feel they belong.....they might not care about the former....


    in the end you and the committee have a responsibility to be respectful but also with the best interests of the other competitors involved.

    is the individual posting scores from mens or ladies tees for handicap purposes scores would the individual be willing to play from a different set of tees ?

    Do you have a sense what the other competitors feel ?

    Last edited by Weirfan; Aug 9, 2019, 12:37 PM.
    "Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it happened "

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by sikoram View Post
      Ok. Here its is. I am looking for some respectful assistance in dealing with a "situation" at our club. We have a male member who is transitioning as a female and might enter our club championship as a Lady. Now everyone sit down and get chillaxed. We can't be the first club where this issue has arisen. What I am looking for is some respectful guidance in dealing with this. Does any other club member have written guidance in modernising our rules for entry. I have sent an e mail to our Zone chair and asked if the Provincial body BCGA or Golf Canada has any written guidance as well.

      Modernising golf indeed!
      From: http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/gender-iden...ssion-brochure

      Gender identity is each person’s internal and individual experience of gender. It is their sense of being a woman, a man, both, neither, or anywhere along the gender spectrum. A person’s gender identity may be the same as or different from their birth-assigned sex. Gender identity is fundamentally different from a person’s sexual orientation.

      Gender expression is how a person publicly presents their gender. This can include behaviour and outward appearance such as dress, hair, make-up, body language and voice. A person’s chosen name and pronoun are also common ways of expressing gender.

      Discrimination happens when a person experiences negative treatment or impact, intentional or not, because of their gender identity or gender expression. It can be direct and obvious or subtle and hidden, but harmful just the same. It can also happen on a bigger systemic level such as organizational rules or policies that look neutral but end up excluding trans people. Friends, family or others who face discrimination because of their association with a trans person are also protected.

      Everyone has the right to define their own gender identity. Trans people should be recognized and treated as the gender they live in, whether or not they have undergone surgery, or their identity documents are up to date.

      Comment


      • #4
        I found how the International Olympic Committee has determined they will handle the issue

        http://www.newnownext.com/the-olympi...mpete/04/2018/

        of course your Club C this is not a world class sporting event....

        I do recall a legal case in the USA with a male to female long drive competition and the person was allowed to compete because once the gender transition was completed she was determined to be "physically a female" don't ask me what all that entailed ....
        "Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it happened "

        Comment


        • #5
          Ask them if they have XX or XY chromosomes, and there is your answer.

          this reminds me of a mma fighter who transitioned and proceeded to beat the crap out of women.

          https://www.bjjee.com/articles/trans...-with-reality/

          I personally don't believe society should be making these kinds of concessions, personal decisions shouldn't affect other people.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by QuentinJJ View Post
            Trans people should be recognized and treated as the gender they live in, whether or not they have undergone surgery, or their identity documents are up to date.
            In other words, let the Member play in whichever Club Championship they want. There's prob no need for a governing body to tell you that as it's not about testosterone levels. It's not a professional league. And more importantly, it's about not labeling that Member as a man or a woman. As far as I know.

            It's a controversial subject for sure, but we're learning as we go. I found this article a while back when my adult daughters were teaching me about "not labeling."

            https://www.bbc.com/sport/46453958

            Originally posted by Weirfan View Post
            II do recall a legal case in the USA with a male to female long drive competition and the person was allowed to compete because once the gender transition was completed she was determined to be "physically a female" don't ask me what all that entailed ....
            "Transgender women take the female hormone oestrogen and testosterone-blockers before having any surgery, and continue to take oestrogen after their transition – reuslting in "pretty radical physiological changes", with muscle mass, strength and speed all reduced."

            I can understand if the female members object, but therein lies the problem. This is 2019 and something those ladies (and all the club members) will have to live with, as unfair as it may seem.
            – Greg

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by synergy View Post
              In other words, let the Member play in whichever Club Championship they want. There's prob no need for a governing body to tell you that as it's not about testosterone levels. It's not a professional league. And more importantly, it's about not labeling that Member as a man or a woman. As far as I know.

              It's a controversial subject for sure, but we're learning as we go. I found this article a while back when my adult daughters were teaching me about "not labeling."

              https://www.bbc.com/sport/46453958



              "Transgender women take the female hormone oestrogen and testosterone-blockers before having any surgery, and continue to take oestrogen after their transition – reuslting in "pretty radical physiological changes", with muscle mass, strength and speed all reduced."

              I can understand if the female members object, but therein lies the problem. This is 2019 and something those ladies (and all the club members) will have to live with, as unfair as it may seem.
              Yes, I think that it is very clear, at least in Ontario with the Ontario Human Rights Code.

              However: Caitlyn Jenner's handicap was not recognized by the US Golf Association following her transition. Jenner, a keen golfer, had an impressive handicap and score when playing as Bruce, but after identifying as a woman, her numbers were void.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post
                I personally don't believe society should be making these kinds of concessions, personal decisions shouldn't affect other people.
                While I agree, decisions to have a female Championship at the club actually affects other people –(trans-people). The fairness thing never ends. At least this was the argument my daughters presented. I went on to say that women should not be called women and men should not be called men. I thought I had won the argument.

                There's many in society that want all things equal and there's many that accept that things are not, or ever will be equal.
                – Greg

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by synergy View Post

                  I can understand if the female members object, but therein lies the problem. This is 2019 and something those ladies (and all the club members) will have to live with, as unfair as it may seem.
                  Perhaps, but the OP and the club is looking for guidance and has a responsibility to more than one person in running this Championship event.....that is why looking at what other associations have done can provide him with an unbiased, already thought out and established protocol.

                  i found this which might be helpful, it is a list of many different sports associations and how they deal with the issue.

                  https://www.transathlete.com/policies-by-organization

                  Golf Canada policy is outlined and I think that provides the OP with the best guidance he can get and is what I would likely be relying upon if charged with this decision

                  this is what it says for Golf Canada

                  Eligibility

                  1. A Golfer will be eligible to participate in an event, provided that the participant is female or male and:

                  a) was female or male at birth;

                  OR

                  b) is a trans female (Male to Female) Golfer and surgical anatomical changes have been completed, including external genitalia changes and gonadectomy; or

                  c) is a trans female (Male-to-Female) Golfer treated with testosterone suppression medication for gender reassignment purposes. A trans female may compete in a men's event but may not compete in a women's event until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment.

                  d) is a trans male (Female-to-Male) Golfer treated with testosterone administration medication for gender reassignment purposes. A trans male may compete in a men's event, but is not eligible to compete in a women's event.



                  2. Any transgender Golfer who is not taking hormone treatment related to gender reassignment may participate in sex-separated events in accordance with his or her assigned birth gender. For certainty:

                  a) A trans male (Female-To-Male) Golfer who is not taking testosterone related to gender reassignment may participate in a women's event.

                  b) A trans female (Male-To-Female) Golfer who is not taking hormone treatments related to gender reassignment may participate in a men's event.
                  Last edited by Weirfan; Aug 9, 2019, 01:04 PM.
                  "Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it happened "

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Weirfan View Post

                    Perhaps, but the OP and the club is looking for guidance and has a responsibility to more than one person in running this Championship event.....that is why looking at what other associations have done can provide him with an unbiased, already thought out and established protocol.
                    Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to suggest the OP not seek advice. I just meant that it's not about what the bylaws of any club sets up. It's simply accepting that Member as a woman if they identify as woman. Apparently, we're just supposed to shrug our shoulders and say "poof", you're now a woman. That's what my daughters were telling me... acceptance.
                    – Greg

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Weirfan View Post

                      Perhaps, but the OP and the club is looking for guidance and has a responsibility to more than one person in running this Championship event.....that is why looking at what other associations have done can provide him with an unbiased, already thought out and established protocol.

                      i found this which might be helpful, it is a list of many different sports associations and how they deal with the issue.

                      https://www.transathlete.com/policies-by-organization

                      Golf Canada policy is outlined and I think that provides the OP with the best guidance he can get and is what I would likely be relying upon if charged with this decision

                      this is what it says for Golf Canada

                      Eligibility

                      1. A Golfer will be eligible to participate in an event, provided that the participant is female or male and:

                      a) was female or male at birth;

                      OR

                      b) is a trans female (Male to Female) Golfer and surgical anatomical changes have been completed, including external genitalia changes and gonadectomy; or

                      c) is a trans female (Male-to-Female) Golfer treated with testosterone suppression medication for gender reassignment purposes. A trans female may compete in a men's event but may not compete in a women's event until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment.

                      d) is a trans male (Female-to-Male) Golfer treated with testosterone administration medication for gender reassignment purposes. A trans male may compete in a men's event, but is not eligible to compete in a women's event.



                      2. Any transgender Golfer who is not taking hormone treatment related to gender reassignment may participate in sex-separated events in accordance with his or her assigned birth gender. For certainty:

                      a) A trans male (Female-To-Male) Golfer who is not taking testosterone related to gender reassignment may participate in a women's event.

                      b) A trans female (Male-To-Female) Golfer who is not taking hormone treatments related to gender reassignment may participate in a men's event.
                      That policy would be challenged in Ontario by the Ontario Human Rights Code. I keep mentioning Ontario because I believe the club in question is in British Columbia.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by QuentinJJ View Post

                        That policy would be challenged in Ontario by the Ontario Human Rights Code. I keep mentioning Ontario because I believe the club in question is in British Columbia.
                        Pretty sure that the Golf Canada Policy for this includes Ontario as well.
                        "Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it happened "

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Weirfan View Post

                          Pretty sure that the Golf Canada Policy for this includes Ontario as well.
                          I'm sure that it does too. However, my opinion is that the policy is not consistent with the Ontario Human Rights Code and could be challenged successfully in court.

                          http://www.rcga.org/_uploads/documen...nderpolicy.pdf

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well, you can't say I didn't get any information. I have an e mail into Adam Helmer at Golf Canada but his inbox states he is at the Canadian Amateur until Monday. I will keep the site updated on what I learn and what we do.

                            We are not trying to keep everybody happy. I've learned that's impossible, especially in the world of golf. What we are trying to do is the right thing.

                            Thanks to ALL who replied.
                            Last edited by sikoram; Aug 9, 2019, 02:58 PM. Reason: Adam Helmer not Alan

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Without the risk of sounding ignorant but you say she is transitioning, does that mean the process isn't complete to be accepted as a lady yet, saying she hasn't completed the transition yet, hope this doesn't sound rude, just wondering at what point is the transition is complete..
                              Thomas4golf

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