Handicap Question

[Jeffc]

So I played in a tournament this week which had 2 flights, A and B. The B flight which I was in was 8-18 indexes. The guy that won it shot a +1 73, 6 strokes ahead of the next guy. In looking at his scores on Golf Canada, he has entered 80 scores this year, many dates have multiple rounds 3-4, and one date has 27 rounds entered. I am not sure if he was entering in all these scores well after the fact (some must have been from last year as we have only been playing for 7 weeks or so. His handicap was 10.1 before the cutoff of July 1. He entered no scores after June 25th and then just after his round 3 scores of 76 show up (not telling when those were played) which brought his cap down to 7.1.

I have already reported this to the organizer but wanted to get feedback as to whether this person should be DQ'd based on the fact his Index is essentially invalid.

[SmoothBomber]

seems kinda shady. That said, I was an 11hcp when I posted a 72 at Humber so it does happen.

[bogey5]

I heard of an event a couple of years ago where a questionable result was overturned after the organizer asked GAO or Golf Canada for their assessment and then did an interview with the supposed winner.

[mpare]

Jeff, the entry of the scores is certainly curious. If he was trying to catch up with scores that he had not previously entered and there were that many of them, one would have thought that he would also remember the dates on which he'd played those rounds. That he entered all of them for the same date indicates that either he did not have those dates or he did and couldn't be troubled entering them into the computer. My guess is that he didn't have them. If he couldn't recall the dates, what are the chances that he could recall that many scores and he specific order in which they were shot? It's possible, I suppose, but unlikely. More to the point, though, I'm surprised that Golf Canada accepted the scores as legitimate given that there is no way that he played 27 rounds on one day. All in all, this is a situation that calls for an explanation from the golfer. Were I on the handicap/competition committee, they're questions I'd want answers to. It seems the only fair thing to do for the rest of the field.

[Jeffc]

Jeff, the entry of the scores is certainly curious. If he was trying to catch up with scores that he had not previously entered and there were that many of them, one would have thought that he would also remember the dates on which he'd played those rounds. That he entered all of them for the same date indicates that either he did not have those dates or he did and couldn't be troubled entering them into the computer. My guess is that he didn't have them. If he couldn't recall the dates, what are the chances that he could recall that many scores and he specific order in which they were shot? It's possible, I suppose, but unlikely. More to the point, though, I'm surprised that Golf Canada accepted the scores as legitimate given that there is no way that he played 27 rounds on one day. All in all, this is a situation that calls for an explanation from the golfer. Were I on the handicap/competition committee, they're questions I'd want answers to. It seems the only fair thing to do for the rest of the field.

Thanks Mike. I am thinking of ringing Golf Canada tomorrow. He is posted 80 rounds since the start of the year, which I find highly doubtful.

Many days he has 2,3, or 4 rounds posted. While I know you can play multiple rounds in a day, something isn't adding up here, especially the last 3 rounds which would have bumped him from B to A division. That being said, I really can't have any faith that anything to do with his index is accurate based on the various discrepancies found.

[Jeffc]

I will leave the analysis of his scores to others with relevant expertise.

That said, I would recommend that you stick to the facts of the situation as you have outlined here.

1) Where were the 80 rounds played?

all over Ottawa mostly. Some at Black Bear

2) How would he explain posting 27 rounds with the same date?

No idea.

3) Are all 80 scores attested? By whom?

Not that I can tell.

4) How much would his claimed factor of 10.1 need to have changed before it made a material difference to the tournament results?

the cutoff was 8 so 7.9 or lower is A flight. He is at a 7.1 right now.

5) How many times did he post scores of approximately 73 on courses of similar or greater difficulty?

Of the 80 rounds, I think there were about a 6 or 7 where he broke 80 but nothing approaching 73 (I think 76 was the lowest which he posted 3 rounds at the same time as his 73). The rest were all in the 80's.

6) What is the probability that a person with a factor of 10.1 would shoot 73 on that course in tournament conditions?

It's pretty low but it could happen. It's a course that you can score on and make birdies, especially from the whites and you are a long hitter. It's more the fact I don't think he should have been in B and a 7.1 can could totally shoot 73. The day was hot, but with little wind and the greens rolling nicely.

[Playthru]

Only time I have seen mass dumping of scores in the system is when someone was switching from a public handicap software to the Golf Canada website. Check if he is a recent member of Golf Canada - that might explain it.

[wlorcb]

It is hard to make an assessment on this persons tournament rounds based on one exceptionally low round. You need at least 2 to get rid of the luck factor. No one who is double digit index can shoot 2 rounds of +1. Unfortunately there is no real remedy for this. You need to have the Handicap Committee take it up with the player and have him produce his scorecards for all events to make sure he is recording all rounds and that all tournament rounds(like the one he just won) have been entered as T scores(so they stay on the system longer if they count)(presuming that the new system still makes this distinction)

[OKHC]

There are no 'tournament rounds' in the 2020 handicap system. But there are index reductions if you have a differential that is 7 strokes better than your index.
The Golf Canada site still asks you whether you played a tournament round, when you enter a score, but that question should be removed.

[ChasingPar]

A little off topic, but B flight is for 8-18 indexes? That's a big range. Basically, anybody 10.0 or over has no chance of winning, IMO.

I'm curious, were any of the 27 rounds with the same date among his 20 most recent rounds before the event?

If not, then they're of limited relevance. They might call into question his inputting of scores, in a general sense, but they would have no impact on his index.

[Mr22putt]

I heard of an event a couple of years ago where a questionable result was overturned after the organizer asked GAO or Golf Canada for their assessment and then did an interview with the supposed winner.

Really?
It must have been a serious tournament?.....what event was it?

[Jeffc]

A little off topic, but B flight is for 8-18 indexes? That's a big range. Basically, anybody 10.0 or over has no chance of winning, IMO.

I'm curious, were any of the 27 rounds with the same date among his 20 most recent rounds before the event?

If not, then they're of limited relevance. They might call into question his inputting of scores, in a general sense, but they would have no impact on his index.

Yes it is a big range, but it is what it is.

yes, most of those scores would have factored in. He only had 3 scores after that date entered prior to the event

he is now a 6.3 (handicap down 4 strokes in just over a week) and shot 76 on a tough course from the blues in today’s event. It will likely be lower since he hasn’t entered today’s score

[bogey5]

Really?
It must have been a serious tournament?.....what event was it?

There was a good amount of $$$ involved.

[mpare]

If true, that alone tends to bring out the sandbaggers.

There was a good amount of $$$ involved.

[wlorcb]

Yes it is a big range, but it is what it is.

yes, most of those scores would have factored in. He only had 3 scores after that date entered prior to the event

he is now a 6.3 (handicap down 4 strokes in just over a week) and shot 76 on a tough course from the blues in today’s event. It will likely be lower since he hasn’t entered today’s score

Yeah, that is pretty suspect. Again, what some people will do for their moment of glory. We had one guy at the course we were members of who won an event(can't remember what it was, might have been his flight in the CC) who actually pulled sand out of his pockets while getting his trophy/pro bucks!