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How to deal with a ball that might be lost in a penalty area?

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  • How to deal with a ball that might be lost in a penalty area?

    The Remington Parkview Valley course crosses the mighty Rouge River 4 times. Two of those holes are par 3's where the penalty area begins directly in front of the tee. All of the crossings have significant areas of heavy shoreline vegetation. It is often not possible to see if a poorly struck shot might have actually made it across safely or not. Note - the vegetation is quite thick, and the likelihood of finding one's ball is not great, and if found will probably be unplayable.

    So, how can, or how must, players proceed in those situations when there is some hope that the ball may not have landed in the penalty area and be lost? Are there options?

    Rule 18.3 prohibits the use of a provisional ball for a ball that might be lost in a penalty area - so that option is out.

    If the player feels his ball is probably landed in the penalty area and is not likely to be found, they can play either from where the original ball was played under penalty of stroke and distance, or to take a one stroke lateral release penalty from the penalty area. The disadvantage here is that the original ball, should it be found, is no longer in play.

    However, if the player feels there may be a chance their ball may have travelled beyond the penalty area and be easily found, then they would need to go across the river and confirm that. But In this case, if the ball is not found and it is abundantly clear that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in the penalty area, the only apparent relief would be to go back and seek relief as above.

    Is this the only option available under the rules?

    If this later situation is the case, it would involve considerable time and effort in some of those situations at Remington (as elsewhere I presume) to cross over the river, look for a ball, and to go back across once more, to seek relief after failing to find the original ball. One hole would require climbing a hill all the way back up to the top of the valley.

    Full disclosure....where there is the slightest possibility that a ball might have made it across one of the river crossings at Remington, none in our group of seniors, many of of who are walking, would even consider the possibility of going back across the river to take such relief if the ball is not found. They would just drop a new ball where the original should have been found - had it made it through the penalty area. And, where relief has been taken and a second ball is put in play, should the first ball be found, guess which ball gets played?


    Fortunately there are no rules limiting the number of golf balls you can carry during a match!

  • #2
    You've correctly identified the available choices for the player under the Rules of golf.

    Your senior group is choosing to do otherwise, which would lead to serious penalties under the Rules.

    Comment


    • #3
      Out our club for POP issues we play a provisional. Added local rule.

      I'd suggest adopting it to save time.

      I don't get why the ROG don't allow for use a provisional in these cases

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rulie View Post
        You've correctly identified the available choices for the player under the Rules of golf.

        Your senior group is choosing to do otherwise, which would lead to serious penalties under the Rules.
        While true, people are free to do as the Op's group does and make up their own rules for their friendly games.......many people like the OP and his buds play by their own rules and do not abide by the rules of Golf......of course this is only cool as long as they are not entering these scores for hc purposes or competing against others who are playing properly
        "Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it happened "

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Weirfan View Post

          While true, people are free to do as the Op's group does and make up their own rules for their friendly games.......many people like the OP and his buds play by their own rules and do not abide by the rules of Golf......of course this is only cool as long as they are not entering these scores for hc purposes or competing against others who are playing properly
          Agree. However, this is a Rules of golf forum, not a forum on how to avoid playing by the Rules. The original post asked about the Rules and my response was based on the Rules of golf. By the last paragraph of the post, they know that they are not playing by the Rules of golf.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Fore Warned View Post
            The Remington Parkview Valley course crosses the mighty Rouge River 4 times. Two of those holes are par 3's where the penalty area begins directly in front of the tee. All of the crossings have significant areas of heavy shoreline vegetation.
            I'm not familiar with the course. Is the shoreline vegetation entirely within the penalty area?

            If yes, then the only possible place the ball could be lost is in the penalty area, and a provisional ball is not allowed, as you've described.

            If no, then the ball might be lost in the penalty area, but also might be lost in the vegetation outside the penalty area. In this case, a provisional ball is allowed.

            In this second scenario, if the original ball is found in the penalty area, then the player can play it as it lies, or take relief under Rule 17.1b. If it's found in the vegetation outside the penalty area, he can play it as it lies, or decide it's unplayable and take relief under Rule 19.2. If it's not found anywhere, then it's lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play.

            Correct?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Fore Warned View Post
              The Remington Parkview Valley course crosses the mighty Rouge River 4 times. Two of those holes are par 3's where the penalty area begins directly in front of the tee. All of the crossings have significant areas of heavy shoreline vegetation. It is often not possible to see if a poorly struck shot might have actually made it across safely or not. Note - the vegetation is quite thick, and the likelihood of finding one's ball is not great, and if found will probably be unplayable.

              So, how can, or how must, players proceed in those situations when there is some hope that the ball may not have landed in the penalty area and be lost?Are there options?

              Rule 18.3 prohibits the use of a provisional ball for a ball that might be lost in a penalty area - so that option is out...........
              I think you are misunderstanding Rule !8.3 which does not say that you can't play a provisional ball for a ball that might be lost in a penalty area. It's the other way round. It says you may play a provisional if the ball might be lost outside the penalty area
              • If a ball might be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally under penalty of stroke and distance

              You describe a situation where the ball might be lost outside the penalty area. Playing a provisional ball is an option.

              Comment


              • #8
                The OP brings up a good situation that I have encountered many a time.

                When it is clear that the only way the ball would be lost is if it landed in the penalty area. But you cannot hit a provisional for this situation. I have often wondered about the logic for this rule.

                Maybe the experts can explain.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rulie View Post
                  You've correctly identified the available choices for the player under the Rules of golf.

                  Your senior group is choosing to do otherwise, which would lead to serious penalties under the Rules.
                  Thanks for this. Appreciated.

                  Serious penalties indeed. The feint of heart in our group might suffer unfortunate consequences from this rule if they had to climb back up to the top of the valley.

                  I can see the inscription on the tombstone....."An honest golfer, gone from this world returning to play the ball from where the last stroke was taken"


                  Originally posted by ColinL View Post

                  I think you are misunderstanding Rule !8.3 which does not say that you can't play a provisional ball for a ball that might be lost in a penalty area. It's the other way round. It says you may play a provisional if the ball might be lost outside the penalty area
                  • If a ball might be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally under penalty of stroke and distance

                  You describe a situation where the ball might be lost outside the penalty area. Playing a provisional ball is an option.
                  Wish it were so. The penalty areas are not well marked. But there is a pretty well defined line between the dense vegetation and playable areas. We would consider anything inside the vegetated area to be in the penalty area, which for all intents and purposes, is unplayable anyway (except perhaps for a few weeks in early spring).

                  It is doubtful that any ball landing just outside of the vegetated area would be lost. Good luck trying to make that argument where we play.


                  Originally posted by Jasonp View Post
                  Out our club for POP issues we play a provisional. Added local rule.

                  I'd suggest adopting it to save time.

                  I don't get why the ROG don't allow for use a provisional in these cases
                  I like this and also question why the rules would make an exception for the use of a provisional ball that might be lost in a penalty area.

                  A rationale for this does not seem to be readily apparent.

                  Fortunately there are no rules limiting the number of golf balls you can carry during a match!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Fore Warned View Post

                    Thanks for this. Appreciated.

                    Serious penalties indeed. The feint of heart in our group might suffer unfortunate consequences from this rule if they had to climb back up to the top of the valley.

                    I can see the inscription on the tombstone....."An honest golfer, gone from this world returning to play the ball from where the last stroke was taken"




                    Wish it were so. The penalty areas are not well marked. But there is a pretty well defined line between the dense vegetation and playable areas. We would consider anything inside the vegetated area to be in the penalty area, which for all intents and purposes, is unplayable anyway (except perhaps for a few weeks in early spring).

                    It is doubtful that any ball landing just outside of the vegetated area would be lost. Good luck trying to make that argument where we play.




                    I like this and also question why the rules would make an exception for the use of a provisional ball that might be lost in a penalty area.

                    A rationale for this does not seem to be readily apparent.
                    Imo, it's about many things:
                    - is a ball that is not found in the penalty area or not in the penalty area?
                    - where was the "provisional" ball played from? (answer to first question would determine if it was played from a wrong place or a right place)
                    - the Rules are loathe to give a player a choice of which ball he or she is going to play next
                    - not everything is about pace of play and convenience

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rulie View Post

                      Imo, it's about many things:
                      - is a ball that is not found in the penalty area or not in the penalty area?
                      - where was the "provisional" ball played from? (answer to first question would determine if it was played from a wrong place or a right place)
                      - the Rules are loathe to give a player a choice of which ball he or she is going to play next
                      - not everything is about pace of play and convenience
                      The question is precisely to the point, but kind of sounds like...."If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" A rhetorical question at best. How exactly does one determine whether a lost ball, which may have gone into a penalty area, is lost in or out of the penalty area?

                      The only way to determine that would be to find the ball. If you don't find the ball the question can't be definitively answered.

                      In that case, the player may determine.... at their discretion... whether the ball is lost in or out of the penalty area and, where there is a choice of relief, to take relief as best suits their interests.

                      As I see it, there is an inherent conundrum in these circumstances, when a rule asks for differentiation on how to proceed based on an unanswerable question.

                      The player in fact has a choice under the rule. That choice is just played out differently from situations where provisional balls are allowed.





                      Fortunately there are no rules limiting the number of golf balls you can carry during a match!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There's no conundrum.

                        If a player’s ball has not been found and it is known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area:
                        • The player may take penalty relief under Rule 17.1d or 17.2.
                        • Once the player puts another ball in play to take relief in this way:
                          • The original ball is no longer in play and must not be played.
                          • This is true even if it is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 6.3b).
                        But if it is not known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area and the ball is lost, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief under Rule 18.2.

                        Known or Virtually Certain
                        The standard for deciding what happened to your ball – for example, whether your ball came to rest in a penalty area, whether it moved or what caused it to move.
                        Known or virtually certain means more than just possible or probable. It means that either:
                        • There is conclusive evidence that the event in question happened to your ball, such as when you or other witnesses saw it happen, or
                        • Although there is a very small degree of doubt, all reasonably available information shows that it is at least 95% likely that the event in question happened.
                        Last edited by rulie; Oct 25, 2020, 01:47 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ColinL View Post

                          I think you are misunderstanding Rule !8.3 which does not say that you can't play a provisional ball for a ball that might be lost in a penalty area. It's the other way round. It says you may play a provisional if the ball might be lost outside the penalty area
                          • If a ball might be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally under penalty of stroke and distance

                          You describe a situation where the ball might be lost outside the penalty area. Playing a provisional ball is an option.
                          Based on the OP's follow ups, he was not trying to describe a situation where the ball might be lost outside the penalty area.

                          I see how you got that impression though. In the first post, he wrote:

                          "So, how can, or how must, players proceed in those situations when there is some hope that the ball may not have landed in the penalty area and be lost?"

                          It's now clear what he meant was:

                          "So, how can, or how must, players proceed in those situations when there is some hope that the ball may not have landed in the penalty area and may not be lost?"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Fore Warned View Post

                            Wish it were so. The penalty areas are not well marked. But there is a pretty well defined line between the dense vegetation and playable areas. We would consider anything inside the vegetated area to be in the penalty area, which for all intents and purposes, is unplayable anyway (except perhaps for a few weeks in early spring).

                            It is doubtful that any ball landing just outside of the vegetated area would be lost. Good luck trying to make that argument where we play.
                            It's all in the uncertainty of the wording you chose. You have a penalty area that isn't clearly marked It is often not possible to see if a poorly struck shot might have actually made it across safely or not. There is some hope that the ball may not have landed in the penalty area and be lost. And there's the misreading of the rule when you say "Rule 18.3 prohibits the use of a provisional ball for a ball that might be lost in a penalty area - so that option is out".

                            All that is needed to be allowed to play a provisional ball is the possibility that the ball is lost outside the penalty area. For there to be no such possibility you would need to have the penalty area clearly marked and the ground outside it kept sufficiently clear that if the ball was not found in it it must be in the penalty area.

                            You ask "How exactly does one determine whether a lost ball, which may have gone into a penalty area, is lost in or out of the penalty area? The only way to determine that would be to find the ball. If you don't find the ball the question can't be definitively answered." That is not quite the case. As mentioned above, the question is answered if the area outside the penalty area is such that if you do not find your ball in it it must be in the penalty area.


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Saw a similar situation happen to Ian Poulter. He hit his tee bail into a wooded area which may have had a stream running along it, can't remember, but it was red/yellow staked penalty area. As they were looking for his ball he was discussing with a rule official his options, He was thinking point of entry but official saying return to tee for lost ball. Ian started to get pretty heated when they found his ball. It had entered the penalty area, bounced off a tree and landed back outside the penalty area. So the rules official was right that it was a lost ball. This time of year makes it tougher with course conditions and leaves hiding the ball.

                              Comment

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