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Abortion after rape/incest = "tampering with evidence"

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  • #46
    Originally posted by northernpro View Post
    For the life of me I can't understand how some people believe they should
    create laws that govern another persons right to have a abortion..it's their
    body...have your own beliefs govern your own body...it's pretty simple..
    The fetus is not a part of the woman's body...

    The "unborn isn't a human" is the only conceivable argument for abortion. Arguing that a fetus is a part of the woman's body is asinine.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

      To your first point, the pro-choice movement hasn't made a distinction between the difference between the born and unborn, as there are some within the movement who are now advocating for post-birth abortions, otherwise known as murder.
      I didn't ask about what some in the pro-choice movement advocate; the question was about the position you've put forth. If you believe that a post-birth termination by a rape victim is murder (I agree), but that a pre-birth termination by a rape victim is not, then you must be differentiating between the lives of pre- and post-birth children. One must be a lesser life than the other.

      The rate of cryptic pregnancies among women who are raped is negligible, not to mention pregnancy testing and prevention is part of the medical examination of rape victims. So this is hardly worth discussing.
      But it is worth discussing. Many rapes are unreported, and unexamined. And incest is even less frequently reported. If one needs to a stamp-of-rape-approval to get an abortion, by the time they realise they are pregnant it's too late for an examination to prove the rape occurred, which I'm assuming would be a requirement of "only for rape and incest" laws. And though some will victim-blame and say it's their own fault for not reporting a rape, that falls apart when we remind ourselves that incest is on the okay-to-abort list, and I don't think we need to go into the reasons why incest is rarely reported.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

        To your first point, the pro-choice movement hasn't made a distinction between the difference between the born and unborn, as there are some within the movement who are now advocating for post-birth abortions, otherwise known as murder.

        Nobody is advocating this. It's a made up talking point among conservatives (and repeated by their leader, Trump).

        https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...mothers-decid/
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        • #49
          Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

          The fetus is not a part of the woman's body...

          The "unborn isn't a human" is the only conceivable argument for abortion. Arguing that a fetus is a part of the woman's body is asinine.
          If a fetus isn't a part of a woman's body, then they should be allowed to remove the foreign organism growing in them.
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          • #50
            Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

            The fetus is not a part of the woman's body...

            The "unborn isn't a human" is the only conceivable argument for abortion. Arguing that a fetus is a part of the woman's body is asinine.
            technically it is inside a woman's body, attached by umbilical cord at that point so one could argue it is. It could not survive without being attached.
            Last edited by Jeffc; May 15, 2019, 03:15 PM.
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            • #51
              It is unfortunate that the most fervent pro lifers are actually pro birth. They are not interested in what happens to the baby or mother after birth.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by AjaxGolf View Post
                It is unfortunate that the most fervent pro lifers are actually pro birth. They are not interested in what happens to the baby or mother after birth.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Pimento Cheese View Post
                  I didn't ask about what some in the pro-choice movement advocate; the question was about the position you've put forth. If you believe that a post-birth termination by a rape victim is murder (I agree), but that a pre-birth termination by a rape victim is not, then you must be differentiating between the lives of pre- and post-birth children. One must be a lesser life than the other.

                  But it is worth discussing. Many rapes are unreported, and unexamined. And incest is even less frequently reported. If one needs to a stamp-of-rape-approval to get an abortion, by the time they realise they are pregnant it's too late for an examination to prove the rape occurred, which I'm assuming would be a requirement of "only for rape and incest" laws. And though some will victim-blame and say it's their own fault for not reporting a rape, that falls apart when we remind ourselves that incest is on the okay-to-abort list, and I don't think we need to go into the reasons why incest is rarely reported.
                  you stated that the pro-choice movement has made the distinction between the born and unborn as a human life, i was just rebutting that.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by NineNineSix View Post

                    Nobody is advocating this. It's a made up talking point among conservatives (and repeated by their leader, Trump).

                    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...mothers-decid/
                    Ralph Northam literally advocated for infanticide: "When we talk about third-trimester abortions, these are done with the consent of obviously the mother, with the consent of the physician ó more than one physician, by the way ó and itís done in cases where there may be severe deformities. There may be a fetus thatís non-viable.

                    If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if thatís what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother."

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

                      you stated that the pro-choice movement has made the distinction between the born and unborn as a human life, i was just rebutting that.
                      First, you rebutted by talking about a tiny, and, frankly, irrelevant minority of pro-choicers. If you think they are representative of pro-choicers, you are wrong.

                      But more to the point, your rebuttal deflected from the question that was asked, and that you continue to fail to answer, which is this: If you believe that a post-birth termination by a rape or incest victim is wrong, but that a pre-birth termination by a rape or incest victim is okay, how do you reconcile those positions? Do you make a distinction between the value of a "life" that is unborn and a "life" that is born?

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

                        Ralph Northam literally advocated for infanticide: "When we talk about third-trimester abortions, these are done with the consent of obviously the mother, with the consent of the physician ó more than one physician, by the way ó and itís done in cases where there may be severe deformities. There may be a fetus thatís non-viable.

                        If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if thatís what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother."
                        That happens now and it isn't infanticide.

                        Edit - in Canada no less
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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

                          Ralph Northam literally advocated for infanticide: "When we talk about third-trimester abortions, these are done with the consent of obviously the mother, with the consent of the physician ó more than one physician, by the way ó and itís done in cases where there may be severe deformities. There may be a fetus thatís non-viable.

                          If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if thatís what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother."
                          LOL - ok, no point in taking this discussion any further.
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                          • #58
                            A very troubling aspect of this topic, is the hypocrisy generally shown by both sides.

                            Those who are 'pro-life' tend to also be the ones that support capital punishment.
                            Those who are 'pro-choice' tend to be opposed to capital punishment.

                            Either life in all forms is sacred and must be protected, or the taking of life is to be allowed by the state. You cannot have it both ways.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Arthur Dailey View Post
                              A very troubling aspect of this topic, is the hypocrisy generally shown by both sides.

                              Those who are 'pro-life' tend to also be the ones that support capital punishment.
                              Those who are 'pro-choice' tend to be opposed to capital punishment.

                              Either life in all forms is sacred and must be protected, or the taking of life is to be allowed by the state. You cannot have it both ways.
                              Don't you need to have an agreement on what the definition of "life" is, before you can determine that being pro-choice and being opposed to capital punishment and/or being pro-life and supporting capital punishment is hypocritical?

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Pimento Cheese View Post

                                First, you rebutted by talking about a tiny, and, frankly, irrelevant minority of pro-choicers. If you think they are representative of pro-choicers, you are wrong.

                                But more to the point, your rebuttal deflected from the question that was asked, and that you continue to fail to answer, which is this: If you believe that a post-birth termination by a rape or incest victim is wrong, but that a pre-birth termination by a rape or incest victim is okay, how do you reconcile those positions? Do you make a distinction between the value of a "life" that is unborn and a "life" that is born?
                                Yes, but that distinction doesn't mean I believe the unborn should be sucked through a vacuum.

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