The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

[dekker]

Re: The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

Garbage in. Garbage out.
Libs,Cons and Ndippers will continue to promise more for less because that what we want to hear, even though we know it's a lie. The best liar wins every time.
There is simply no guarantee that any increased taxes will be applied to pay down the debt.
The day that a tax collected for a specific purpose is not put into a common slush coffer is the day we will get squared.

[Fredk]

Re: The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

...There is simply no guarantee that any increased taxes will be applied to pay down the debt....

This is where a more informed voting public would be useful. I would be in favour of adding back the 2% GST IF it was called a debt retirement tax and was applied to our existing deficits and debt and nothing else.

Here is how I see taxes: When times are good, taxes should be slightly higher than expenses and the difference should go into reserves. When times are bad taxes inevitably fall below expenses, even in a well run government. This is the time you draw on reserves to cover excess expenses.

You should have taxes to support the services you want. You should think long and hard about any new service you want to add. Existing services should be periodically examined to make sure they still offer value. You should have a well trained and reasonably paid civil service to make sure this happens regardless of who is currently in power.

Its not complicated stuff, but it does seem to be difficult to implement and execute.

[lelyflamingo]

Re: The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

Agreed but two main ones

Just wanted to let you know... there is 4 School Board in Ontario...

[PistolPete]

Re: The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

This is where a more informed voting public would be useful. I would be in favour of adding back the 2% GST IF it was called a debt retirement tax and was applied to our existing deficits and debt and nothing else.

Here is how I see taxes: When times are good, taxes should be slightly higher than expenses and the difference should go into reserves. When times are bad taxes inevitably fall below expenses, even in a well run government. This is the time you draw on reserves to cover excess expenses.

You should have taxes to support the services you want. You should think long and hard about any new service you want to add. Existing services should be periodically examined to make sure they still offer value. You should have a well trained and reasonably paid civil service to make sure this happens regardless of who is currently in power.

Its not complicated stuff, but it does seem to be difficult to implement and execute.

Great idea and something that I actually believe a lot of people would support

[pendlebg]

Re: The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

Great idea and something that I actually believe a lot of people would support

Interesting and possibly I am much more cynical but I do not foresee the day that "a lot of people would support" any tax increase for any reason at anytime anywhere.

The conversation of meaningful tax reform is seemingly impossible to have since it quickly get's overwhelmed by the all taxes are bad screaming matches. Trying to discuss the subtleties of value for money on tax expenditures along with future returns on capital investments via public spending projects never reaches a detailed level of debate at a mass audience level since simplistic sound bites dominate the discussion.

After all, as a previous poster indicated, it is apparently obvious to everyone that the problem is a trivial one based on anecdotal stories of road patching crews not patching roads. Why have a nuanced debate of pros and cons of appropriate levels of spending and investment when the answer is right in front of your face? Does wasteful spending happen? Sure it does, is solving that a panacea to our tax and government revenue problems? I need more than anecdotal evidence to conclude that.

[Bluefan75]

Re: The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

This is where a more informed voting public would be useful. I would be in favour of adding back the 2% GST IF it was called a debt retirement tax and was applied to our existing deficits and debt and nothing else.

Here is how I see taxes: When times are good, taxes should be slightly higher than expenses and the difference should go into reserves. When times are bad taxes inevitably fall below expenses, even in a well run government. This is the time you draw on reserves to cover excess expenses.

You should have taxes to support the services you want. You should think long and hard about any new service you want to add. Existing services should be periodically examined to make sure they still offer value. You should have a well trained and reasonably paid civil service to make sure this happens regardless of who is currently in power.

Its not complicated stuff, but it does seem to be difficult to implement and execute.

It's difficult because bureaucracy's goal is to institutionalize itself and guarantee its survival. The "well paid civil service" is only worried about remaining a "well paid civil service." No one is going to give up their cushy job funded by the taxpayer because their service "no longer offers value." You're nuts if you think anyone other than a politician who needs to do so in order to keep their seat is going to go down that road.

As we've seen, apparently that isn't necessary in order to keep a seat, so why ruffle the feathers?

A debt retirement charge? I've seen that on my electric bills for years to retire the old Ontario Hydro debt. How's that working out?

[4wedges]

Re: The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

The problem with all governments is that they have no idea how to run an efficient business. There are no incentives to cut costs, when funds get tight they simply raise taxes/fees. The customers (us) have no choice, they cannot go elsewhere.
Businesses cannot always raise prices because they may lose customers. They have to learn to be efficient.

People in debt rarely have an income problem (except in cases of job losses & so on). They have a spending problem.
Governments do not have a revenue problem. They have spending problems.

Unfortunately they do not have the will power and/or the expertise to fix it.

[Bluefan75]

Re: The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

The problem with all governments is that they have no idea how to run an efficient business. There are no incentives to cut costs, when funds get tight they simply raise taxes/fees. The customers (us) have no choice, they cannot go elsewhere.
Businesses cannot always raise prices because they may lose customers. They have to learn to be efficient.

People in debt rarely have an income problem (except in cases of job losses & so on). They have a spending problem.
Governments do not have a revenue problem. They have spending problems.

Unfortunately they do not have the will power and/or the expertise to fix it.

Part of the problem, is in a business, the people with the power and risk are the same, whereas a government it's not.

If you sunk money into a business, you're the one who stands to lose if it does not become efficient, hence you use whatever sway you have, based on your ownership position to make it happen.

With the government, it's a bunch of people. Some who have money, many more who have a lot less or none. More money means paying more in taxes ostensibly. So the people paying for things have less sway over those not paying, because there are simply fewer of them. Yes they can lobby etc., but the number of votes is far less than those who aren't. So if you aren't paying taxes now, what do you care if a proposal comes up that will "cost" x amount more? Especially if it might throw a few bucks your way in the end? You're all for it.


I'm not 100% convinced, but I have to say, the argument those who don't pay taxes shouldn't be able to vote does have some merit frankly.

[Fredk]

Re: The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

The problem with all governments is that they have no idea how to run an efficient business. There are no incentives to cut costs, when funds get tight they simply raise taxes/fees. The customers (us) have no choice, they cannot go elsewhere.
Businesses cannot always raise prices because they may lose customers. They have to learn to be efficient.

People in debt rarely have an income problem (except in cases of job losses & so on). They have a spending problem.
Governments do not have a revenue problem. They have spending problems.

Unfortunately they do not have the will power and/or the expertise to fix it.

Nice blanket statements. Any time there is a recession, governments have a revenue problem because economic contraction reduces revenue without changing expenses. Alberta is finding this out now. They are rather fortunate to be sitting on a resource who's scarcity means that its price will continue to rise faster than inflation offering a very rare pain free source of rising revenue over the long term.

The US attitude of "its alwyas a spending problem" has driven its cities to borrow because the cannot raise revenues to cover basic expenses like fire and police.

I am not suggesting that our governments need to push for efficiency, but its not a be all and end all panacea.

[Fredk]

Re: The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

A debt retirement charge? I've seen that on my electric bills for years to retire the old Ontario Hydro debt. How's that working out?

This is why we so desperately need a more independent PBO. I'm generally not in favour of the death penalty, but I would make an exception for politicians that spend debt reduction taxes on something other than debt reduction.

Where there is a will AND a reasonably educated public, there is a way.

[Chambokl]

Re: The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

Businesses cannot always raise prices because they may lose customers. They have to learn to be efficient.

Not arguing with you here.... more like a general comment. We always talk about how efficient business are... but how many business declare bankruptcy every year.... and lots of time it is because of bad management.

Businesses blame the government for going bankrupt... Who is the Gov't suppose to blame...

[Bellyhungry]

Re: The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

Not arguing with you here.... more like a general comment. We always talk about how efficient business are... but how many business declare bankruptcy every year.... and lots of time it is because of bad management.

Businesses blame the government for going bankrupt... Who is the Gov't suppose to blame...

They blame the previous government.

[ecgr2035]

Re: The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

From today's G&M.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/the-provinces-are-broke-and-were-all-on-the-hook/article8878545/

I wonder how long we can continue to kick the can down the road? I'm especially concerned about Wynne's promise to "expand transit, create jobs for youth, bolster welfare payments, shut down more coal-fired power stations, upgrade municipal infrastructure, continue implementing full-day kindergarten – and balance the budget in four years."

At some point we need a politician who will tackle the spending issues, but without a majority government and a willingness to risk losing the next election, I doubt we'll find that leader anytime soon. Mike Harris may have done a hatchet job when he was leader, but at least he did something to cut spending, even if it was unpopular and threatened his political future.

This will end eventually, maybe over the next ten years. My guess is that it ends "not with a bang but a whimper".

1. You list important investments key to the long term sustainability of our society - you skimp on these investments and you are guaranteeing slower economic growth and a declining standard of living for your children and grandchildren. They won't thank you reducing debt if the price is elevated unemployment or underemployment for young workers, i.e., them.

2. The govt debt crisis is non-existent. Debt to gdp ratio is elevated since we went through the ringer with the great recession of 2008 and have still not recovered - but it is manageable. The Ontario government had surpluses before 2009 so there is no reason to expect them not to have them when the economy is running closer to capacity.

As any young family household with a house in Toronto will attest to, debt is not a dirty word as long as you have the capability to manage it - Ontario does.

[Onin3]

Re: The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

It is time we replace Hudak and come up with a competent party leader.
Let's see a conservative party in this province in the next election.

[Fredk]

Re: The provinces are broke, and we’re all on the hook

It is time we replace Hudak and come up with a competent party leader...

Agreed.