/*Scroll to top when arrow up clicked BEGIN*/ /*Scroll to top when arrow up clicked END*/
Collapse

Announcement

No announcement yet.
Collapse

America is not for Black People

X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by pudubny View Post
    Or how about when the Floyd protests started. I and others noted that conservative sites and news widely avoided addressing racism an the underlying issue.

    In the Floyd case specifically, what is the evidence that racism was a driving force of Chauvin's actions, or had any influence on his actions at all?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by xrox View Post

      Unfortunately, this was the response I was expecting. You completely missed or ingored the point I was making.

      Again, what I read from you is ignoring the broader conversation of multivariate analysis and focusing your response on repetitive leaping inferences regarding "white" motivations, blaming others, protecting spaces......etc. Stuck on the notion that what black conservatives believe is either an all encompassing truth, or a fallacy, and nothing in-between. If you wonder why the division is growing and solutions are hard to come by, try also looking in the mirror sometime. Another way to put it is -- How do you expect a line of discourse that is solely predicated on inferring blame and deflection from the other side (black or white) to be useful? Even when the other side agrees mostly with you on core points ​​

      As for the mention of Candace Owens. I find her views are shaped more by party alliance and self promotion than by anthing else. She is the epitome of what I described in the 3rd paragraph in my previous post.

      No. You are trying to speak to me in some weirdly condescending tone inferring my inability to reason. I would claim that I've read, studied and experienced the issue more then you and see issues in the foundations of your argument.
      I think there is a lot of evidence whites are motivated to not see racism as an issue. It has several causes. But perceptions that society is a just meritocracy based on choices is core to that belief among others. That those ideas don't stand up under scrutiny harms their sense of accomplishment. Additionally whites have tradionally framed "racism" as overt coming from specific bad attitudes and actions. Systemic racism forces them to look at it from another level, that allowing inequalities to persist by societal choices implicates all of us is threatening. I think whites really struggle with that and again I don't think it should be ignored. I assume you do by never addressing these issues. I think these motivations are important. I don't think I'm alone. I believe people are highly motivated to find other reasons for inequalities other than racism. I don't dismiss all of their points, they find some. But I don't ignore their motivations to do so.
      Additionally you assume I think the blame should only be on one side. That's not true. I have stated before that the biggest problem for white people on these issues is to first acknowledge the problem. Something that endless studies now show is becoming harder to do. At the same time you have cast me in the lot that says "we don't talk about those problems". A common phrase thrown at the black community who are often accused of not addressing "black crime" or black violence. That's not true, I've said the "blame black" narrative coming from some avoids context. I've actually quoted or linked Fryer or Loury on this forum multiple times in support of some of their views. But their views are not simplistic like Elder or Sowell.
      You say the other side "mostly agrees" with my "core" points. I don't think that's true. Is there a study that shows white people in America believe systemic racism is still a major problem by a majority? Further does any study in the last 10 years show that conservatives believe it's a major problem?
      I believe a white culture has largely moved to protect the fences in many instances. The group that had the abundance of power did things overtly(zoning) and covertly (move to suburbia) to continue segregation. That black people didn't have the power as a group to undo those things is somehow lost. So I see group actions, not individual choices as a key factor. Call it "white culture" if you will. You see almost the exact same thing in reverse. Except the group you want to blame (or carefully word as "more responsible" or similar) didn't have the power or the same opportunities as the other group. It didn't create laws or defund its own schools.
      So i see responsibility within the group that controlled the situation to which you don't want to believe could act unjustly (or doesn't do it much anymore) but you are quick to cast aspersions upon the group with little power as "lacking". You assert group responsibility in one case while largely ignoring the bigger more powerful group's role in how the situation was created and perpetuated. This is selective use of group causality. In other cases, it's the merit and choices argument which almost always comes from a perspective that everyone has the same circumstances "as I did" to start on a level playing field. That's demonstratively false and myopic.
      Why is it important that white conservatives deny racism? Especially systemic racism?
      How do views of reverse racism come to be? See Pew research, that whites now see "anti-white" racism as a similarly problematic issue as "anti-black" racism. You support this view? Is it reasonable or an example of white threat? Is it a problem?
      Do you see the highly elevated view of black conservatives (higher regard for them among conservatives than white peoples who hold the similar views) as strange? Motivated?
      Do you see how you use group blame selectively? How you use it when saying "black culture" is the problem but somehow "white culture" is not addressed. Is only one capable of such impact? Otherwise when referring to white accomplishment, see meritocracy or individual choices.
      Have you read any Feagin, Robin D'Angelo, Kendi or Harvard's excellent Jon Hanson? Do you wonder why you are focused on the blame black culture but it's personal responsibility crowd? (Do you see the inconsistency there?)
      So while I appreciate your condescending tone, I don't think I've avoided any arguments, views or skimmed the literature. I am fascinated by why and how we can deny racism as much as racism itself. I don't think it's just ignorance, some of it's motivated.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

        In the Floyd case specifically, what is the evidence that racism was a driving force of Chauvin's actions, or had any influence on his actions at all?
        Not really my point. As I and others have stated, when the coverage kicked off, conservative sites and news focused on the protests, the violence, the threat and other issues. Rarely if ever discussing the underlying cause of the protests, injustice and racism. It's is a republican strategy not to address or acknowledge systemic racism. That's why Bush's release on the issue broke with tradition and party ranks. Even as the party itself has said its needed to do so for years. Most of those plans were sidelined when Trump was elected.
        Some additional history here.
        https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...blican-choice/

        Comment


        • Originally posted by pudubny View Post

          No. You are trying to speak to me in some weirdly condescending tone inferring my inability to reason. I would claim that I've read, studied and experienced the issue more then you and see issues in the foundations of your argument.
          Again, just a long diatribe focused on infering blame when nothing of the sort was ever spoken by me. If you think that I believe that the black conservative views are all encompassing truths, and that blacks are to blame for their lot in life, then you haven't been reading very well. The point, which you continue to miss, is that alternative views, even those we find objectionable, often have truths in them that may need to be part of the discussion if lasting effective solutions are the goal. But continue to cast aspersions if it makes you feel righteous
          Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by pudubny View Post
            Not really my point. As I and others have stated, when the coverage kicked off, conservative sites and news focused on the protests, the violence, the threat and other issues. Rarely if ever discussing the underlying cause of the protests, injustice and racism. It's is a republican strategy not to address or acknowledge systemic racism. That's why Bush's release on the issue broke with tradition and party ranks. Even as the party itself has said its needed to do so for years. Most of those plans were sidelined when Trump was elected.
            Some additional history here.
            https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...blican-choice/
            Sure it is. In order for conservatives broadcasters or conservative academics to address racism as the underlying cause of the protests, that would infer that racism was a motivating factor in Chauvin's actions with Floyd seeing as the Floyd incident was the catalyst for the protests. So, I will ask again, what evidence is there in the Floyd case that Chauvin acted based on racist motives or that race was a factor at all?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

              Sure it is. In order for conservatives broadcasters or conservative academics to address racism as the underlying cause of the protests, that would infer that racism was a motivating factor in Chauvin's actions with Floyd seeing as the Floyd incident was the catalyst for the protests. So, I will ask again, what evidence is there in the Floyd case that Chauvin acted based on racist motives or that race was a factor at all?
              Sure it's not. While many will say that Chauvin's act was "obviously racist" not all would. But perception is important. In their experience it is one more in a long line of incidents showing injustice and unusual use of force on minorities. So the protests were not a reaction to "one thing" or incident. They, like many protests are a reaction to many individual but similar events. It's often cumulative. Regardless of Chauvin's level of racism (if at all) there are problems. Problems conservatives do not want to acknowledge or address. I maintain the first rule of racism from conservatives is we don't talk about racism. The second rule is what some call the "race card card". That is, the minute somebody says race could be an issue, they are playing the "race card" and that person or statement must be discredited immediately. Regardless of whether that person is reasonable or has a point. So rather than talk about the "issue" they complain about how "race" is used. Very selectively.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by pudubny View Post

                Sure it's not. While many will say that Chauvin's act was "obviously racist" not all would. But perception is important. In their experience it is one more in a long line of incidents showing injustice and unusual use of force on minorities. So the protests were not a reaction to "one thing" or incident. They, like many protests are a reaction to many individual but similar events. It's often cumulative. Regardless of Chauvin's level of racism (if at all) there are problems. Problems conservatives do not want to acknowledge or address. I maintain the first rule of racism from conservatives is we don't talk about racism. The second rule is what some call the "race card card". That is, the minute somebody says race could be an issue, they are playing the "race card" and that person or statement must be discredited immediately. Regardless of whether that person is reasonable or has a point. So rather than talk about the "issue" they complain about how "race" is used. Very selectively.
                Just to make it clear... the catalyst for some of the biggest racial protests and riots nationwide since the 1960s didn't even have evidence of racism?

                I maintain that the demand for racism in the U.S. far exceeds the supply, and the race issue is largely promulgated by race hustlers like Sharpton and Jackson who stand to gain from the perception that black Americans are being oppressed at every turn.

                The overwhelming majority of Western society stood with the Floyd family and the protestors writ large in opposing police brutality, but the further these protests deviate from that foundation, the less support they have, and rightfully so.

                We went from - police need more oversight, accountability, and better training - to syrup is racist and garage pull ropes are nooses.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post



                  We went from - police need more oversight, accountability, and better training -
                  that is still the issue. the other stuff is just a distraction.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Richd View Post

                    that is still the issue. the other stuff is just a distraction.
                    for some... for others it is wanting to tear down the Emancipation Memorial that was paid for by freed slaves as a tribute to Lincoln.

                    to be clear... i am on board with solving the policing issue - body cams, eliminate qualified immunity, get rid of police unions, increase training requirements, etc. the rest of the garbage some people are fighting.... hogwash.
                    Last edited by SeanAvery2point0; Jun 29, 2020, 09:09 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

                      Just to make it clear... the catalyst for some of the biggest racial protests and riots nationwide since the 1960s didn't even have evidence of racism?

                      I maintain that the demand for racism in the U.S. far exceeds the supply, and the race issue is largely promulgated by race hustlers like Sharpton and Jackson who stand to gain from the perception that black Americans are being oppressed at every turn.

                      The overwhelming majority of Western society stood with the Floyd family and the protestors writ large in opposing police brutality, but the further these protests deviate from that foundation, the less support they have, and rightfully so.

                      We went from - police need more oversight, accountability, and better training - to syrup is racist and garage pull ropes are nooses.
                      Im certain the way to move the conversation forward is to tell them their experiences don't matter and that what they think is racism really isn't. Dismissal of their claims will get us to where we really want to go. Which is exactly where we are now for some.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by pudubny View Post

                        Im certain the way to move the conversation forward is to tell them their experiences don't matter and that what they think is racism really isn't. Dismissal of their claims will get us to where we really want to go. Which is exactly where we are now for some.
                        I could say the same thing about assigning racist motive to individuals and society writ large, especially when there is no evidence or scanty evidence at best to support it.

                        Comment


                        • 20 month old boy and 10 year old girl among this past weekend's victims in Chicago. This 1 week after a 3 year old was killed. 154 shooting victims and 28 homicides in the last 2 weekends. But sure, its Aunt Jemima's fault...


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by xrox View Post

                            Again, just a long diatribe focused on infering blame when nothing of the sort was ever spoken by me. If you think that I believe that the black conservative views are all encompassing truths, and that blacks are to blame for their lot in life, then you haven't been reading very well. The point, which you continue to miss, is that alternative views, even those we find objectionable, often have truths in them that may need to be part of the discussion if lasting effective solutions are the goal. But continue to cast aspersions if it makes you feel righteous ​​
                            I apologize my views don't match your academic requirements for quality or brevity. Overwhelmingly you have posted counter arguments for systemic racism. You seek out more sources of this angle. While showing no interest in people who address it head on. While we can address alternative views, isn't the science pretty settled on what the big problem is?
                            Here is why I don't think that approach works. By a significant margin whites see black inequality as a problem of "motivation". Reasons for Hispanic inequality are different, I wonder why? We (white people) can try to change "black culture" by complaining about it and trying to get more blacks to change there minds. I want to see how that goes for white guys entering black underfunded schools. Of course they will not, so black conservatives carrying that message are extremely popular with whites who strongly identify as "white" (ie. Don't see racism as a problem) IF we succeed and that works not all of the disadvantages would be removed. Systemic racism would still effect. The minds of the majority will not have changed which has bigger impact. So while the motivation or personal responsibility attitudes will have improved, their school funding hasn't. Their schools would still be underfunded although they would now have the "Protestant work ethic". Most blacks being Protestant makes you wonder if that should be "white work ethic" but we digress. So all the systemic issues not related to motivation would still be in play. Segregation, joblessness, pay equity, interview rates, college enrollment, etc. So we still have significant inequality.
                            Now if whites can actually admit structural issues exist. Bias, attitudes and historical disadvantages then we can make changes that have broader effects. Investment in people and communities. Less segregation being primary but not all. Equal funding (actually more investment to bring them up to the same level) in schools, communities and less mass incarceration for MJ then we can see how the relationship changes. We control the situation and always have, if we acknowledge their are problems and actually address them then progress will be made. One of the things we will see is an improved relationship. Black attitudes about white culture will improve. As opportunities expand motivation improves, I thought that was business 101. People who get invested in, progress. See previous thought.
                            So I am not going to preach the "black culture and personal responsibility" simplicity to black people but good luck with that. I see the major problem as systemic, when we fix that, many other improvements will come. Additionally I can talk to white people about racism without feeling I'm "whitesplaining" their problems.
                            The biggest part of the problem lies with the majority and I firmly believe much of the problem will improve when it's admitted and addressed. But some still think their are other issues. There are but none that would have the impact of fixing the relationship which rests solely with white people. They made the rules and perpetuated them. So while I see the problems about black culture their isn't much I can do about them. I'm not buying more Sowell books. But I can do something about white attitudes and my own. So I'll focus there because I think that where the mass of the problem lies and a big part of the solution. Further I see whites emphasis on other explanations far too often as an excuse to not address systemic racism. It's avoidance, not "alternative views".

                            While I appreciate your feedback. I'd much rather you address the questions. I don't seem to shrink from yours.

                            Comment


                            • The significant majority of academia which actually studies racism thinks it's still a big problem. No surprise you dismiss that. Bucking to be Trump's "science czar" or Fox News next science specialist in the mold of Steve Milloy?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by dmcdam View Post

                                Finger still appeared to be outside the trigger guard but he definitely loses points for muzzle control.
                                Looses points for muzzle control? Look at the section of the video starting at 59 seconds. It looks to me that he shifts slightly and is pointing his weapon at his wife. Maybe it only looks that way because of the camera angle, but I don't think so. Does he lose extra points for that??
                                In The Bag

                                Golf clubs


                                Let them in.
                                We can deal with the bad apples.
                                Evil prevails when good people do nothing.

                                Comment

                                Collapse

                                Join The TGN Email List


                                Collapse

                                Recently Joined


                                Topics: 180,121   Posts: 1,886,801   Members: 48,527   Active Members: 483
                                Welcome to our newest member, bujouves.
                                Collapse

                                Today's Birthdays


                                There are no members with birthdays today.

                                Collapse

                                PGA Leaderboard


                                Working...
                                X