America is not for Black People

[Fredk]

This is nothing new.

Black football & baseball players were characterized as 'gifted athletes', while white players were seen as 'leaders'.

No, it is not. It is what is being played at here in this thread though.

[SeanAvery2point0]

Coded racism. Its what all the cool kids do now...

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...-coded-racism/

Geez... highlighting an athletes strengths is now racist... there is a reason that most running backs and wide receivers are black and most quarterbacks are white...

[Fredk]

Geez... highlighting an athletes strengths is now racist... there is a reason that most running backs and wide receivers are black and most quarterbacks are white...

Right on time. Thank you for making my point.

[SeanAvery2point0]

Right on time. Thank you for making my point.

Please.... enlighten me on your "point", Fred.

[pudubny]

So post 2295 was not directed at me? Then who?

So you don't believe any of 1 - 6? It is all hyperbole? Maybe it is me that is inferring incorrectly. Please clarify what you think my motivations are outside of what I've stated they are. Maybe we can get back to somewhat agreeing.

As for 1-6 Just look back a few posts to see them yourself, how you broadly infer and apply negative motivation and racism denial to those who dare take interest in Sowell and the like.. Odd considering we were in agreement on several issues only a few weeks ago in this thread. My questioning of the broad statements by black conservatives were made several times. Look them up yourself, they are all there. I think the recent one was today on Candice Owens. The disagreements on Sowell and Williams were back when SA2 brought up Sowell and Williams in a reference. And in general, I've pointed out several times (including the past few days) that what they profess is often one sided and ignores or dismisses other contributions. Similar to what I see you doing often.

Post 2295 was a reply to Avery, somehow the quote did not get pulled with it.
I question your motivation, I already stated that. On this topic you have referenced nobody but black conservatives. While you have said that you widely agree with Sowell and Williams (I'm not as familiar) but had a few reservations. But you've been a little divergent. In post 1666 you said:
" The messages from Sowell and Williams are to take ownership and look past the old excuses. IMO this is going to be a part of the solution going forward. Possibly the primary contributor."
Same post you made this comment about my views.
"These statements seem to be token. How about openly discussing the "other" contributions in detail, and then admitting they are contributions?"
Tokenism? Hmmm.

But in 1565 you said:
"I’ve come to accept (partially) the black conservative position that while there is obvious racism and racists, there is no systemic/institutional racism. It took some effort to accept some of the opinions and data as truths, and I am white, with little experience of racist treatment against me. I can't even imagine how I would feel about it as a black person or other minority."
In other posts you have left room potential systemic issues with policing but you were hardly firmly committed that it was systemic. You have also noted school funding is an issue but I'm not clear that you see unequal school funding as a example of systemic racism.

So while I agree with you that there are multiple inputs into inequality, we are not terribly close on the biggest cause or how to change things. Again, with the Sowell message of black cultural poverty, how are you going to discuss that with them? With the message of personal responsibility, how are you going to discuss it with them? I look forward to that. How does your solution work. More white people telling blacks systemic racism isn't a big problem and they need to change their culture? "Hey you poor people who have had little investment from society, do better at overcoming?" I am dying to know how you perform that without blushing from all your white priviledge. Something you also fu-fu in posts. But do tell us the plan.
Again all my questions about how broad group blame only gets applied selectively are relevant here. Questions you have avoided.

So my questions still stand. How is it black conservatives get so much love from whites? And you?
Do you think at least part of this is resistance to acknowledge systemic racism? Part of white threat, competition for resources, insistence their society is just, etc? Maybe not you but by a significant portion of the "racism isn't a thing" crowd?
How do whites become convinced in reverse discrimination? Isn't that threat?
How do they become convinced the that "anti-white" racism is as much an issue as anti-black racism?
These and a host of other questions seem to go unaddressed.
Forgive me if I have misinterpreted your exact quotes.

[ginrin]

Well said Pudubny,it is very interesting where Black conservatives get there platform, usually conservative sources. If really believe there is no systemic racism in the USA ,just bury your head a little deeper in the sand and one day it will magically disappear.

[Bern]

This was a quote from a black friend of mine today.

Morning Revelations: I cross the street, they lock their doors. I get in the elevator, they hold their purses. I walk through the lobby of the building we all live in, they stare as if I don't belong. I get on the subway and sit down, they move over as if I had the plague. I drive a luxury car only to become a target. "How much did you pay for that motorcycle?" they ask, thinking how could someone like me afford it. "what kinda work do you do?" They call me n***er and I react, and then I'm called a monkey for my reaction. The list goes on their fragility and perceived threat.
Should I be scared of my own self? Naw! You'll be seeing more of me and others. Thank you for noticing me.
It's time for a jog...

Seemed appropriate to post his feelings here. The number of times he gets pulled over by the police is astonishing.

[SeanAvery2point0]

Well said Pudubny,it is very interesting where Black conservatives get there platform, usually conservative sources. If really believe there is no systemic racism in the USA ,just bury your head a little deeper in the sand and one day it will magically disappear.

Just look at how the progressives treat black conservatives, where else do you think they would get a platform? People like Elder have been called a host of derogatory racial slurs by this cohort for their entire careers.

[pudubny]

This is nothing new.

Black football & baseball players were characterized as 'gifted athletes', while white players were seen as 'leaders'.

The one I saw cited often is blacks were "talented" of "gifted" but whites were consistently described as "hard working" athletes who developed their skills.

[pudubny]

Just look at how the progressives treat black conservatives, where else do you think they would get a platform? People like Elder have been called a host of derogatory racial slurs by this cohort for their entire careers.

I'm a progressive, I disagree with Elder. But I don't call him names. Try being a republican and disagree with Trump. Now those get nasty with Trump himself leading the drubbing. The way things are looking maybe they should put the stone masons on hold at Mt. Rushmore, doubtful a one term president gets added to the mountain. At this rate he will be lucky to ever have an aircraft carrier named after him, maybe a tug boat.

[Bern]

I'm a progressive, I disagree with Elder. But I don't call him names. Try being a republican and disagree with Trump. Now those get nasty with Trump himself leading the drubbing. The way things are looking maybe they should put the stone masons on hold at Mt. Rushmore, doubtful a one term president gets added to the mountain. At this rate he will be lucky to ever have an aircraft carrier named after him, maybe a tug boat.

A penitentiary may be most apropos

[WWFS]

I'm a progressive, I disagree with Elder. But I don't call him names. Try being a republican and disagree with Trump. Now those get nasty with Trump himself leading the drubbing. The way things are looking maybe they should put the stone masons on hold at Mt. Rushmore, doubtful a one term president gets added to the mountain. At this rate he will be lucky to ever have an aircraft carrier named after him, maybe a tug boat.

Plans are already underway to name an aircraft carrier after him - Дональд Трамп

[xrox]

Post 2295 was a reply to Avery, somehow the quote did not get pulled with it.

Yeah right

So now that you've gone out of your way to look up and take stuff out of context, and then infer some sort of evil racism (hyperbole my *ss), let's look at what you've managed to find:

I question your motivation, I already stated that. On this topic you have referenced nobody but black conservatives. While you have said that you widely agree with Sowell and Williams (I'm not as familiar) but had a few reservations. But you've been a little divergent. In post 1666 you said:
" The messages from Sowell and Williams are to take ownership and look past the old excuses. IMO this is going to be a part of the solution going forward. Possibly the primary contributor."
Same post you made this comment about my views.
"These statements seem to be token. How about openly discussing the "other" contributions in detail, and then admitting they are contributions?"

I've said all along that the points that interested me from Williams (family unit stats/spiritual poverty) may have to be part any solution. It was Williams that said it was the primary contribution needed. I suggested that was "possible". "Primary" meaning, that I agree with him that any solutions (including yours) may not work without it.

As for the "token" statements, the context was IIRC you finally admitting that racism is not the only contribution and what Williams and Sowell profess plays a minor part. A big step for you, but I found it to be a token admission.

But in 1565 you said:
"I’ve come to accept (partially) the black conservative position that while there is obvious racism and racists, there is no systemic/institutional racism. It took some effort to accept some of the opinions and data as truths, and I am white, with little experience of racist treatment against me. I can't even imagine how I would feel about it as a black person or other minority."
In other posts you have left room potential systemic issues with policing but you were hardly firmly committed that it was systemic. You have also noted school funding is an issue but I'm not clear that you see unequal school funding as a example of systemic racism.

Again, out of context. My "partial" acceptance was me backing away from the notion that systemic racism is a white supremecy driven problem, which I firmly believed for most of my life. I then went on to argue that systemic racism exists by using the police example that racial stereotyping is more lilkely the driving force behind it. An argument that easily disproves the sweeping statements from black conservatives.

So yeah, your leaping inferences to the negative are terrible. It is a great example of why resentment for the far left exists.

So while I agree with you that there are multiple inputs into inequality, we are not terribly close on the biggest cause or how to change things. Again, with the Sowell message of black cultural poverty, how are you going to discuss that with them? With the message of personal responsibility, how are you going to discuss it with them? I look forward to that. How does your solution work. More white people telling blacks systemic racism isn't a big problem and they need to change their culture? "Hey you poor people who have had little investment from society, do better at overcoming?" I am dying to know how you perform that without blushing from all your white priviledge. Something you also fu-fu in posts. But do tell us the plan.

LOL - hyperbole it was eh? You just provided all the answers to your questions in your previous post. Wasn't our original discussion on this point that improving the foundation around the community (funding, teaching, school choice, mentoring....etc) was important towards this? How did that turn into evil white privilage? Wait, I already know. As for me preaching to black people. When did I say this was the plan? I just agreed with Williams on a few important points and you lose your sh*t?

How is it black conservatives get so much love from whites? And you?

My reasoning has been explained 10 times by now. But that goes over your head apparently. It has to be your inferred reasons only. I don't know the stats on whites loving Sowell or Williams. Maybe they should just avoid it?

Do you think at least part of this is resistance to acknowledge systemic racism? Part of white threat, competition for resources, insistence their society is just, etc? Maybe not you but by a significant portion of the "racism isn't a thing" crowd?

Of course I can see that being true. Emphasis on "part". As for myself, I was probably more extreme than you on this topic not long ago.

How do whites become convinced in reverse discrimination? Isn't that threat?

We've already debated this in the racism thread. See my extensive points there if you wish. I really liked when you shut right up when the definition of discrimination was posted. However, lumping all whites together in a negative light? Assumption? Inferrence? Racist?

How do they become convinced the that "anti-white" racism is as much an issue as anti-black racism?

Who are they? All white people again? Isn't that racist? As for comparing the magnitude of the problem, see my posts discussing why I think magnitude should be part of the discussion instead of an umbrella term and a single judgement.

[vermin40]

The one I saw cited often is blacks were "talented" of "gifted" but whites were consistently described as "hard working" athletes who developed their skills.

Think you 2 scouts are missing the point. Black football prospects are definitely often categorized as “fast”, “quick”, “talented”, “gifted”, “athletic” etc. where white ones may get “hard working” or “motor never stops” aka “zero athleticism but tries hard”.
So you’re trying to paint this as a negative when it’s really the opposite. No offence but you couldn’t be more wrong if you tried in today’s world.
Not arguing that 40-50-60 years ago they wouldn’t often say a black quarterback might be better suited to being a receiver or something. Thankfully that’s way in the past.

[pudubny]

Think you 2 scouts are missing the point. Black football prospects are definitely often categorized as “fast”, “quick”, “talented”, “gifted”, “athletic” etc. where white ones may get “hard working” or “motor never stops” aka “zero athleticism but tries hard”.
So you’re trying to paint this as a negative when it’s really the opposite. No offence but you couldn’t be more wrong if you tried in today’s world.
Not arguing that 40-50-60 years ago they wouldn’t often say a black quarterback might be better suited to being a receiver of something. Thankfully that’s way in the past.

I will try to find the study Verm, it's at least a decade old. But the strong trend is that blacks were gifted but not "smart" or "hard working". Whereas hard working and smart was most often attributed to whites. I think most concluded it was at least mass stereotyping but some thought its showed strong negative bias. One set of attributes are meritorious, the other not. It's been noted by athletes in the past.