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  • Originally posted by pudubny View Post
    No, I don't. I actually mentioned today that Steele was a foreigner because it's relevant to the legality of the discussion. We identify your oft whataboutisms because you use it as Trump and Hannty do, to avoid addressing the issue at hand. This has been addressed before. The subject is not hypocracy, it's Trumps attitude and comments about foreign information in campaigns.
    I use it to call out people who are inconsistent in their criticisms - not to deflect. I understand Trump is the topic at hand, but most who are condemning him for using foreign intelligence in a campaign were quiet when the Clinton campaign did largely the same thing - used foreigners to find dirt on their opponent.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

      I use it to call out people who are inconsistent in their criticisms - not to deflect. I understand Trump is the topic at hand, but most who are condemning him for using foreign intelligence in a campaign were quiet when the Clinton campaign did largely the same thing - used foreigners to find dirt on their opponent.
      Please show when this was discussed and which posters were present but silent. Failure to support this allegation of inconsistency will be taken as an admission that you've got nothing, and it really is a deflection, which [SPOILER ALERT] it obviously is. But with a join date of April 2019, you can't really have been around during the campaign anyway, could you?

      Neither Trump or Clinton should be president. The problem is that one of them is. It is relevant to talk about the one who IS president. It is whataboutism to stomp your feet about the one who isn't.

      In condemning Clinton but NOT condemning Trump (who you defend at every turn), you are the one being inconsistent.

      So, charging others with "hypocrisy" is awfully rich. Maybe you should accept that you're no better than the people you are slamming. A little self-awareness is not a bad thing.
      Last edited by Pimento Cheese; Jun 13, 2019, 12:12 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

        I use it to call out people who are inconsistent in their criticisms - not to deflect. I understand Trump is the topic at hand, but most who are condemning him for using foreign intelligence in a campaign were quiet when the Clinton campaign did largely the same thing - used foreigners to find dirt on their opponent.
        And I think people are overreacting to the comment as well, assuming he meant he would be willing to cooperate with foreign corrupt gov't. I posted that.
        In my personal opinion what he said was stupid in light of the Mueller investigation and Wray's comments this week. No surprise.
        Now some folks may think he would be willing to accept info from a foreign gov't agent which is immoral and illegal. I personally think the morally bankrupt Donald would do so, but that just my opinion. BUT in the interview that's not what he said. His disagreeing with Wray on informing the FBI doesn't help either.
        Information from foreign nationals is legal so long as they are not acting on behalf of a foreign gov't and it's not a companion contribution or in kind offer.
        Steele did not contact the Clinton campaign and offer dirt, he was contacted by Fusion GPS, another small but significant distinction. The Trump Tower meeting should have been reported to the FBI in my opinion, before and after. Hiring Fusion GPS needs no such proviso.
        So I think some people are assuming Trump would take info from a foreign agent with corrupt intent although that's not what he said. And secondly, I don't think it's equivalent to hiring Fusion GPS.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

          I use it to call out people who are inconsistent in their criticisms - not to deflect. I understand Trump is the topic at hand, but most who are condemning him for using foreign intelligence in a campaign were quiet when the Clinton campaign did largely the same thing - used foreigners to find dirt on their opponent.
          Ludicrous.

          In summary, intelligence was from a foreign firm / individual, originally commissioned by a supporter of one or more of Rump's primary opponents.
          WITB: clubs, balls, tees, Advil and a candlestick (just in case)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by pudubny View Post

            And I think people are overreacting to the comment as well, assuming he meant he would be willing to cooperate with foreign corrupt gov't. I posted that.
            In my personal opinion what he said was stupid in light of the Mueller investigation and Wray's comments this week. No surprise.
            Now some folks may think he would be willing to accept info from a foreign gov't agent which is immoral and illegal. I personally think the morally bankrupt Donald would do so, but that just my opinion. BUT in the interview that's not what he said. His disagreeing with Wray on informing the FBI doesn't help either.
            Information from foreign nationals is legal so long as they are not acting on behalf of a foreign gov't and it's not a companion contribution or in kind offer.
            Steele did not contact the Clinton campaign and offer dirt, he was contacted by Fusion GPS, another small but significant distinction. The Trump Tower meeting should have been reported to the FBI in my opinion, before and after. Hiring Fusion GPS needs no such proviso.
            So I think some people are assuming Trump would take info from a foreign agent with corrupt intent although that's not what he said. And secondly, I don't think it's equivalent to hiring Fusion GPS.
            "How good were these sources? Consider what Steele would write in the memos he filed with Simpson: Source A—to use the careful nomenclature of his dossier—was “a senior Russian Foreign Ministry figure.” Source B was “a former top level intelligence officer still active in the Kremlin.” And both of these insiders, after “speaking to a trusted compatriot,”"

            There is a reason that the Clinton campaign went through Perkins Coie and didn't hire Fusion GPS or Steele directly. Some of the sources for the Dossier were active members of the Russian government, according to Steele's memos.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by pudubny View Post

              And I think people are overreacting to the comment as well, assuming he meant he would be willing to cooperate with foreign corrupt gov't. I posted that.
              In my personal opinion what he said was stupid in light of the Mueller investigation and Wray's comments this week. No surprise.
              Now some folks may think he would be willing to accept info from a foreign gov't agent which is immoral and illegal. I personally think the morally bankrupt Donald would do so, but that just my opinion. BUT in the interview that's not what he said. His disagreeing with Wray on informing the FBI doesn't help either.
              Information from foreign nationals is legal so long as they are not acting on behalf of a foreign gov't and it's not a companion contribution or in kind offer.
              Steele did not contact the Clinton campaign and offer dirt, he was contacted by Fusion GPS, another small but significant distinction. The Trump Tower meeting should have been reported to the FBI in my opinion, before and after. Hiring Fusion GPS needs no such proviso.
              So I think some people are assuming Trump would take info from a foreign agent with corrupt intent although that's not what he said. And secondly, I don't think it's equivalent to hiring Fusion GPS.
              Trump likes to parse words to allow him to allow for deniability yet telegraph to his base at the same time. That has been his MO since forever.

              A great example is the often-used 'People say...' so that he can make wild claims or name call but afford him the deniability.

              People are not over reacting, it is just that people see right through it.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

                "How good were these sources? Consider what Steele would write in the memos he filed with Simpson: Source A—to use the careful nomenclature of his dossier—was “a senior Russian Foreign Ministry figure.” Source B was “a former top level intelligence officer still active in the Kremlin.” And both of these insiders, after “speaking to a trusted compatriot,”"

                There is a reason that the Clinton campaign went through Perkins Coie and didn't hire Fusion GPS or Steele directly. Some of the sources for the Dossier were active members of the Russian government, according to Steele's memos.
                You feelings about the dossier are well documented but it was not illegal. Probably not even unusual. Steele was an intelligence asset for years. I don't doubt that many other similar dossiers are prepaired, it is up to campaign leaders to decide what is useable/believable. But that's not colluding with a foreign agent/gov't.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by pudubny View Post


                  Now some folks may think he would be willing to accept info from a foreign gov't agent which is immoral and illegal. I personally think the morally bankrupt Donald would do so, but that just my opinion. BUT in the interview that's not what he said..
                  What are our lying ears hearing here?

                  https://streamable.com/xqxwk

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Last edited by Par90; Jun 13, 2019, 01:43 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by pudubny View Post

                    You feelings about the dossier are well documented but it was not illegal. Probably not even unusual. Steele was an intelligence asset for years. I don't doubt that many other similar dossiers are prepaired, it is up to campaign leaders to decide what is useable/believable. But that's not colluding with a foreign agent/gov't.
                    I'm sure AG Barr will try to find a way to make it illegal.
                    https://www.torontogolfnuts.com/TGNFantasy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by pudubny View Post

                      You feelings about the dossier are well documented but it was not illegal. Probably not even unusual. Steele was an intelligence asset for years. I don't doubt that many other similar dossiers are prepaired, it is up to campaign leaders to decide what is useable/believable. But that's not colluding with a foreign agent/gov't.
                      So indirectly getting information from a foreign government official/asset is legal, but doing so directly is illegal? Don Jr. should have just had Cohen or hired a research firm to attend the TT meeting and everything would have been kosher?

                      I don't see how using a middle man is any different in the eyes of the law.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

                        So indirectly getting information from a foreign government official/asset is legal, but doing so directly is illegal? Don Jr. should have just had Cohen or hired a research firm to attend the TT meeting and everything would have been kosher?

                        I don't see how using a middle man is any different in the eyes of the law.
                        Well, I think if the Clinton Campaign or Fusion GPS had a chance of being accused of breaking campaign laws, it would have been announced from the rooftop of the capital building by now. I have not heard a remotely credible person say what they did was a violation of any law. So I think it's safe to say the law does view them differently.
                        But to your point, when the information was gathered by Steele, was it an attempt by the Russians to interfere with the election? Likely not.
                        On the other hand, if an agent of a foreign gov't overtly contacts election officials (like the Trump Tower meeting) that is an overt attempt regardless of what ended up being shared. To be clear, I'm not saying what was shared in the meeting interfered in the election, I am saying its a different way of receiving the information based on the intent of the provider.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by pudubny View Post

                          Well, I think if the Clinton Campaign or Fusion GPS had a chance of being accused of breaking campaign laws, it would have been announced from the rooftop of the capital building by now. I have not heard a remotely credible person say what they did was a violation of any law. So I think it's safe to say the law does view them differently.
                          But to your point, when the information was gathered by Steele, was it an attempt by the Russians to interfere with the election? Likely not.
                          On the other hand, if an agent of a foreign gov't overtly contacts election officials (like the Trump Tower meeting) that is an overt attempt regardless of what ended up being shared. To be clear, I'm not saying what was shared in the meeting interfered in the election, I am saying its a different way of receiving the information based on the intent of the provider.
                          So you don't think those in the Kremlin who gave Christopher Steele 'damaging' information on Trump had the intention of hurting his campaign, stifling his Presidency, or to sow discord in American political discourse?

                          I find that hard to believe.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Par90 View Post

                            What are our lying ears hearing here?

                            https://streamable.com/xqxwk

                            Click image for larger version

Name:	law.PNG
Views:	67
Size:	1.08 MB
ID:	2987107
                            While I don't know what you are trying to say I will try to explain what I said more clearly. Accepting information from a foreign agent acting on behalf of a foreign gov't (especially hostile) is bad and illegal.
                            Accepting information from a foreigner not acting on behalf of a foreign gov't is not illegal IMO. Some call it a grey area. If that person offers it to the campaign for free with no other considerations, I cannot see how it's illegal. He can go to the press so I cannot understand how's talking becomes illegal. It not a Logan act violation. A former business associate goes to the campaign and spills dirt on broken contracts and call girls, maybe phone tapes. He's just an angry person who happens to be a foreigner. He wants nothing from the campaign, illegal?
                            WAPO,
                            "I think my view is that if any public official or member of any campaign is contacted by any nation-state or anybody acting on behalf of a nation-state about influencing or interfering with our election, then that is something that the FBI would want to know about,” Wray said.

                            It is illegal to accept foreign campaign contributions, although an exchange of information is a more murky matter.

                            Mueller found that it was not clear whether courts would accept that opposition research provided free by a foreign government constituted a “thing of value” and thus an illegal foreign campaign contribution.

                            The Mueller report spends a lot of time of this, it focuses on foreign agents, not foreigners.
                            https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.a211884d302e



                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

                              So you don't think those in the Kremlin who gave Christopher Steele 'damaging' information on Trump had the intention of hurting his campaign, stifling his Presidency, or to sow discord in American political discourse?

                              I find that hard to believe.
                              I find it doubtful that Steele provided them any reason to believe he was helping Clinton or working for the campaign. He was an experienced intelligence asset. In many cases he would have not contacted them directly but through various intelligence rumour mills or second hand sources. Some of this info is in the Dossier. Secondly, like all political institutions, I'm sure staff have a wide array of opinions outside the official position of the institution.
                              The official position of Putin and GRU is they wanted Trump as president, of that their is little doubt. So maybe the pee-tape rumour was a false flag to embarrass Clinton if she dared share it with the press with no chance of proving it. Or maybe they knew lots of Trump supporters would think, "hey, that's cool".
                              All kinds of options, campaign leaders have to decide what they use.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by SeanAvery2point0 View Post

                                What about hiring a law firm, who hires a research firm, who hires a former intelligence officer, who gathers information from Russian sources?
                                What about the fact that the Steele Dossier originated as 'opposition research' during the GOP primaries?
                                Sage of the GTA...

                                Comment


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