The Panic over the CoronaVirus [ Covid -19] is both Ridiculous and Unjustifed

[High cut]

I've ignored this site for weeks now due to the exercise in stupidity in arguing with the antivaxxers. I had the opportunity to chat with a guy I met fishing, he's a respiratory therapist at a local hospital. They have had 46 deaths recently from covid, 45 were unvaxxed, the vaccinated patient who succumbed was 90. The staff he works with have run out of compassion for those burdening the health care system.


I've been keeping an eye on Florida covid numbers for a while. They are averaging around 350 deaths a day, all of Canada is averaging 30. Evidence points to the fact that Florida is under-reporting covid cases so the actuals are likely much, much worse. Roughly 20 times more likely to die from covid in Florida than Canada based on population. At some point, we need to take out the stick. The evidence has been clear for months.

This is pretty much it. Close the thread.

[68shark]

I've ignored this site for weeks now due to the exercise in stupidity in arguing with the antivaxxers. I had the opportunity to chat with a guy I met fishing, he's a respiratory therapist at a local hospital. They have had 46 deaths recently from covid, 45 were unvaxxed, the vaccinated patient who succumbed was 90. The staff he works with have run out of compassion for those burdening the health care system[/B].


I've been keeping an eye on Florida covid numbers for a while. They are averaging around 350 deaths a day, all of Canada is averaging 30. Evidence points to the fact that Florida is under-reporting covid cases so the actuals are likely much, much worse. Roughly 20 times more likely to die from covid in Florida than Canada based on population. At some point, we need to take out the stick. The evidence has been clear for months.

A golf buddy works in the Lindsay hospital. He didn't give numbers but basically everyone they treat for Covid is unvaxxed. His view is the same as your friend's. Whatever compassion they started off with has eroded. The anti-vax crowd are just plain stupid and selfish. Yet, if they get sick with Covid, they will be lined up begging to be treated for something they could have easily avoided.

I agree with "the stick". I was delighted to read that some hospitals in Ontario have fired the refuseniks for cause. They gave them ample warning and were clear about the consequences. Now they have no job. Exactly what they deserve.

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/windsor-hospital-fires-staff-who-arent-vaccinated-against-covid-19

[mjmtengu]

I've ignored this site for weeks now due to the exercise in stupidity in arguing with the antivaxxers. I had the opportunity to chat with a guy I met fishing, he's a respiratory therapist at a local hospital. They have had 46 deaths recently from covid, 45 were unvaxxed, the vaccinated patient who succumbed was 90. The staff he works with have run out of compassion for those burdening the health care system.


I've been keeping an eye on Florida covid numbers for a while. They are averaging around 350 deaths a day, all of Canada is averaging 30. Evidence points to the fact that Florida is under-reporting covid cases so the actuals are likely much, much worse. Roughly 20 times more likely to die from covid in Florida than Canada based on population. At some point, we need to take out the stick. The evidence has been clear for months.

This is exactly why you need to look at excess deaths and NOT reported cases/deaths since they are fraught with error and over/underreporting. For example, excess deaths in Canada are running at about 6% and in places like South Africa close to 50% excess deaths. Excess deaths takes into account Covid deaths, deaths due to hospitals being overwhelmed and not being able to apply care to incoming patients, delayed operations etc. as well as lower deaths from accidental deaths when in lockdown etc. I guarantee you, the US will not look particularly good on the excess death basis and the stats I have seen suggest that the mortality improvement is actually going to be negative for the recent calendar year etc. in the US.

[Risky84]

A resource provided by a hospital network that allows you to book a telephone appointment with a credentialed healthcare/medical practitioner to discuss vaccination.

Yet some still would rather rely on 'their own research'.

Despite not having applicable advanced degrees, access to a laboratory, direct experience in treating infected people, or belonging to the research community.

In some ways it is like dealing with children who have to touch the hot stove element before they believe that it will burn them.

Great way to put it AD .

[Bellyhungry]

[bogey5]

I wonder if they would accept AZ for both 1st and 2nd dose.

I read somewhere that they don't accept mixed but not confirmed.

Presumably more details will come out.

Expect mixed dose approval soon. Canada + others in Europe want it + many in US that got J&J may want something else at booster time.

[Bern]

This is exactly why you need to look at excess deaths and NOT reported cases/deaths since they are fraught with error and over/underreporting. For example, excess deaths in Canada are running at about 6% and in places like South Africa close to 50% excess deaths. Excess deaths takes into account Covid deaths, deaths due to hospitals being overwhelmed and not being able to apply care to incoming patients, delayed operations etc. as well as lower deaths from accidental deaths when in lockdown etc. I guarantee you, the US will not look particularly good on the excess death basis and the stats I have seen suggest that the mortality improvement is actually going to be negative for the recent calendar year etc. in the US.

Fair point on the excess deaths numbers. The covid numbers are far easier to dig up. I suspect the conversations with covid deniers would get even more convoluted when trying to explain why it's a more relevant number and why Covid and anti vaxxers are to blame

[ace in the hazard]

I've ignored this site for weeks now due to the exercise in stupidity in arguing with the antivaxxers. I had the opportunity to chat with a guy I met fishing, he's a respiratory therapist at a local hospital. They have had 46 deaths recently from covid, 45 were unvaxxed, the vaccinated patient who succumbed was 90. The staff he works with have run out of compassion for those burdening the health care system.


I've been keeping an eye on Florida covid numbers for a while. They are averaging around 350 deaths a day, all of Canada is averaging 30. Evidence points to the fact that Florida is under-reporting covid cases so the actuals are likely much, much worse. Roughly 20 times more likely to die from covid in Florida than Canada based on population. At some point, we need to take out the stick. The evidence has been clear for months.

Your numbers are pretty outdated. Florida has averaged 10-20 deaths a day for the last week. They got the message about vaccines and their situation improved dramatically. They are at almost 58% fully /68% 1 dose. Not that far behind Canada at 71%/76%.

Doesn't change the conclusion, just updating with newer info. Too much news here focuses on things going badly down there...not enough when things improve.

[ace in the hazard]

So I can’t help but notice that ya’ all arguing more with him is working out well…….

I blame the people responding almost as much as the poster himself for making this thread borderline unreadable. How hard is it to just ignore him? Most people got the message and just don't take the bait. The same 3 or 4 people keep feeding the dumpster fire. I skip past their posts as quickly as I do MM/KBB/GN etc.

[MichaelR]

So I can’t help but notice that ya’ all arguing more with him is working out well…….

I blame the people responding almost as much as the poster himself for making this thread borderline unreadable. How hard is it to just ignore him? Most people got the message and just don't take the bait. The same 3 or 4 people keep feeding the dumpster fire. I skip past their posts as quickly as I do MM/KBB/GN etc.

Comments duly noted, agreed with, and hereby emphasized.

C'mon guys, we can do better. Discipline yourselves.
.

[Bellyhungry]

Comments duly noted, agreed with, and hereby emphasized.

C'mon guys, we can do better. Discipline yourselves.
.

Aye Aye Captain. Roger that.

I even extend the perimeter of that principle beyond just one.

[Pingeye2_fan]

https://twitter.com/brittlestar/status/1448002160051073028?s=21

[Golfninja]

Good news if it's true...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/top-virologist-says-delta-defeated-predicts-6-months-of-covid-quiet-for-israel/amp/

The logic is based on the premise that the 3rd dose is invoking strong immunity and the fact that there other jabs that require 3 doses for max effectiveness. I guess time will tell but Ninja is not so optimistic...

[Golfninja]

Comments duly noted, agreed with, and hereby emphasized.

C'mon guys, we can do better. Discipline yourselves.
.

You guys are too much. Either ignore or respectfully disagree, not that hard. All the negativity, bad language, insults etc are unprovoked and unnecessary. We all have our opinions, so accept this as fact and move on. Seriously, it's pretty easy. The fact that I can handle the daily barrage from all of you but you guys seemingly cannot handle the Ninja? You guys are the ones picking the fight, then whine and complain when it comes back to you. Seriously, you can do better gentlemen.

[Arthur Dailey]

Toronto Life just published an excellent, in depth article on the 'Preacher' in Aylmer Ontario who is one of Ontario's pre-eminent anti-vax leaders.

Excerpts and a link to the article below.


https://torontolife.com/life/the-anti-vax-crusaders/

In their telling, Covid is nothing but a harsh flu, and its severity is being exaggerated by elites—politicians, billionaires, the pharmaceutical industry—to exert control over the populace, enrich themselves and usher in an oppressive new world order.

Hildebrandt and his flock refuse to get vaccinated for a raft of religious, anecdotal and pseudo-scientific reasons, and it will take more than a few line graphs and statistics to change their minds.

The immovable naysayers who have coalesced around Hildebrandt are so difficult to convince because, for many of them, the choice is not really about the vaccine. According to polling by Abacus, the number-one reason Canadians refuse to get vaccinated is that they hate government telling them what to do. Hildebrandt’s followers see themselves as an oppressed minority.

To them, defiance is necessary and noble; refusing the vaccine is an act of righteous rebellion against a greedy overclass bent on world domination. Their common dogma has nothing to do with medical science. It’s about resistance.

In 1990, Hildebrandt went to see a travelling preacher named Daniel Layne speak at a rented schoolroom in Aylmer. Hildebrandt fell for Layne’s fervent, unrelenting vision of Christianity. He began preaching in 1991. Layne died in 2011 at the age of 67 after a series of illnesses, so leadership of the church fell to Ray Tinsman, an Ohio man who claims to be an earthly conduit to God, as well as an inner circle of 10 senior preachers, including Hildebrandt, who call themselves apostles.

He (Layne) believed that, to be holy, Christians must be free from sin, and he had an unyielding interpretation of what constituted sinful behaviour: not just homosexuality, divorce and abortion, but anything deemed superfluous, like neckties, musical instruments used during worship, and haircuts for women. The church was radical, residing on the fringes of conservative Christianity. To join, members had to adhere to Layne’s austere rules, which dictated what they wore (plain, old-fashioned clothing in white, black and grey) and what colour cars they drove (also white, black or grey). His followers weren’t allowed to listen to the radio or read the news. He counselled his followers on who to marry and whether they could go on vacation.

Members of the Restoration don’t date. Rather, they consult their pastors about potential partners within the congregation with an eye to marrying and starting a family.

The core of his resistance is Restoration doctrine, which largely rejects Big Pharma and medical intervention and instead mandates holistic medicine (including exercise and nutrition) and relies on the power of prayer and divine healing. The church applies this approach unevenly, taking no issue with dental work or eyeglasses yet shunning medicine and surgery unless absolutely necessary. And if it is necessary, it carries social stigma. When members get sick, they consult the church’s elders, who pray for them. Illness and even death are treated as God’s will—to interfere would be a sign of spiritual weakness.

Bob Mutch, the husband of apostle Susan Mutch, was excommunicated in 2008 for questioning the church’s stance on refusing medical help. Hildebrandt’s followers also have limited access to material produced outside the church. In the last year, the Gospel Trumpet has published erroneous and misleading articles about the health hazards of masks, the potential side effects of vaccines (cancer, Alzheimer’s and death, supposedly) and the checkered history of the pharmaceutical companies manufacturing them. An editorial begins, “If someone were to approach Bill Gates and Tony Fauci with the intent to give them a dose of the real Covid vaccine, I envision the vaccine duo running in horror for their lives. They know too much.”

I asked Hildebrandt if he’d considered the possibility that he and his church might be wrong. Hildebrandt wouldn’t entertain the premise of my question.

The Restoration’s rejection of modern medicine has led to tragedy before. Twenty years ago, a couple from the church were charged with involuntary manslaughter after their 11-month-old daughter died from untreated meningitis. Around the same time, Manitoba officials investigated Hildebrandt’s brother, who’d lost two children of his own; the London Free Press reported that one child died after being born at home prematurely and that the other passed away from a lung ailment when the family refused to put the child on oxygen. (Hildebrandt denies these reports, claiming that his sister-in-law had two miscarriages. No charges were laid.)

In the early 2000s, Children’s Aid received a tip that a couple who followed Hildebrandt were striking their children with straps, and failing to procure necessary medical care for their injuries. Social workers removed seven children from the home, resulting in a media frenzy. Church members called it a “barbaric raid” and argued that corporal punishment was sanctioned by the Bible. In the following months, more than 100 women and children from the Aylmer congregation temporarily fled to the U.S. over fears that Children’s Aid would come for their kids, too.

To Hildebrandt, the newcomers are the fulfillment of a grim prophecy millennia in the making. The Restoration believes that the end of the world is imminent, that Jesus will return to save true believers.

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees Canadians freedom of religion and the right to peaceful assembly. Several churches, including Hildebrandt’s, have filed Charter challenges against the government, arguing that Covid restrictions, including bans on religious gatherings, infringe on those freedoms. The courts will rule on those challenges in 2022. Many legal scholars suspect that judges will find that the government acted constitutionally, thanks to the first section of the Charter, which acknowledges that “reasonable limits” may be imposed upon Canadians’ rights and freedoms if those limits are “demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.”

The question is not so much what to do with Hildebrandt and his followers, but how to come to grips with what he represents: the millions who embrace misinformation and ignore science.