President Biden and Communion

[mpare]

With some hesitancy, I have started this thread, because the issue is important politically and religiously important. As the attached article makes clear, it appears that the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) will likely be debating whether President Biden and other Catholic politicians should be denied Holy Communion because of their stance of abortion. Catholic teaching views abortion as a grave moral sin. Politicians who countenance the availability of abortions are, not surprisingly, seen as aiding and abetting in the commission of this grave sin. This puts them in a constant state of mortal sin, which means that they should not be able to receive Communion.

As the article makes clear, a majority of Catholics believe that Biden should still be able to receive this sacrament. However, for strict Catholics this is not a debatable point. Church teaching makes abortion a sin, therefore it is a sin. Full stop. My understanding is that there are other areas of Catholic teaching that are treated equally cavalierly by a significant number of Catholics. This would include, for instance, the use of birth control devices and same sex relations. Will the Bishops favouring a hard line against notable politicians similarly deny Communion to Catholics using birth control or engaged in or countenancing same sex relationships? If they do, then the number of individuals claiming to the Catholics may be reduced substantially.

It's doubtful that Catholic politicians will renounce their support for reproductive rights just because of this religious threat. At the same time, pushing the issue at the conference may well divide the bishops in acrimonious ways. I'll be watching to see how this plays out.

Bishops to debate banning communion for president | TheHill

[Arthur Dailey]

What of all those Catholics who against the teachings of the Church ate red meat on Fridays?

Are they all now posthumously pardoned?

Hate to make light of what is indeed a serious theological/philosophical debate.

And if Biden makes his Confession prior to Communion, does that not make him eligible?

[mpare]

In theory, confession prior to Communion might clean the slate. However, for a confession to be valid, if I remember correctly, the person must be sorry for what he has done and intend not to repeat the sin. I very much doubt that polititicians who have endorsed reproductive rights are truly sorry that they've taken that stance, or that they intend to resile from it. If that is so, then they couldn't be said to have been truly repentant. That's my take on this, for what it's worth.

Red meat on Friday is not something that I'd worry about.

What of all those Catholics who against the teachings of the Church ate red meat on Fridays?

Are they all now posthumously pardoned?

Hate to make light of what is indeed a serious theological/philosophical debate.

And if Biden makes his Confession prior to Communion, does that not make him eligible?

[Arthur Dailey]

In theory, confession prior to Communion might clean the slate. However, for a confession to be valid, if I remember correctly, the person must be sorry for what he has done and intend not to repeat the sin. I very much doubt that polititicians who have endorsed reproductive rights are truly sorry that they've taken that stance, or that they intend to resile from it. If that is so, then they couldn't be said to have been truly repentant. That's my take on this, for what it's worth.

Red meat on Friday is not something that I'd worry about.

1) That is also how I read it. However you can repent on a Saturday. Be absolved. Take Communion on Sunday. And then a few days or weeks later once again fall prey to weakness and sin again. I believe that is one reason for holding Confession on a regular basis. Most of us do not commit the same sin only once.

Furthermore since Biden has not had an abortion (obviously). Nor has he performed one. And I am not sure that he has ever counselled someone to have one or taken someone directly to a clinic. Therefore has he actually 'sinned'?

As for red meat on Friday, I am old enough to have heard sermons about it and been convinced that breaking that edict was indeed a sin. Although not a 'mortal' one. However I do remember sermons stating that divorce and masturbation were indeed mortal sins.

[wlorcb]

Not to start a great debate but did all those people in the church heirarchy still receive communion after they committed child abuse on a regular basis? Not to mention the Residential School situation?

And isn't the prohibition about meat on Friday merely something that occurs because at some point in the past(like priest celibacy) the church decided this is what they wanted to do(like changing the sabbath to Sunday)?

[Bern]

They should be more concerned with the size of Joel Osteen's house.

[bl8d]

the hypocrisy of the Catholic church is best viewed through the reign of Pope Leo X. It was his debauched and ruinous lifestyle which set off the selling of thousands of Indulgences (papal forgiveness of sins) and only served to fuel the Reformation led by Martin Luther.
This will be an incredibly challenging year for Catholics and their faith.
I believe Hollywood has only treated this theme and its period seriously just once ,in the film The Name of the Rose- Sean Connery.

[mpare]

Agreed. For the Church, those who subsequently waver from their commitment to the straight and narrow are simply human. Their confession was fine, because at the time they were sorry for what they'd done, and intended to "sin no more." The political actors, of which I am speaking, might find that impossible to do so. As for Biden's supposed sin, I assume that it lies in supporting laws that makes abortions legal. That alone is sufficient to get a Catholic in very hot water with the Church and Church teachings.

If you thought that you were confused about the prohibition against the consumption of meat on Fridays, read this. Are Meatless Fridays Still a Thing? Does it Matter?| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com)

1) That is also how I read it. However you can repent on a Saturday. Be absolved. Take Communion on Sunday. And then a few days or weeks later once again fall prey to weakness and sin again. I believe that is one reason for holding Confession on a regular basis. Most of us do not commit the same sin only once.

Furthermore since Biden has not had an abortion (obviously). Nor has he performed one. And I am not sure that he has ever counselled someone to have one or taken someone directly to a clinic. Therefore has he actually 'sinned'?

As for red meat on Friday, I am old enough to have heard sermons about it and been convinced that breaking that edict was indeed a sin. Although not a 'mortal' one. However I do remember sermons stating that divorce and masturbation were indeed mortal sins.

[Fore Warned]

One has to wonder where the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishop’s (USCCB) sees this going should they vote declaring Biden a sinner and be denied Holy Communion.

Is this an attempt to shame Biden to bring him into line with Catholic doctrine and have him seek to change the existing laws?

Do they realistically think this will happen? What then is their objective? To single him out and vilify him as a sinner?

Biden, if he is a fervent Catholic will have long ago come to his own terms on the subject, and may well have considered the possible consequences.

I don't know if this issue was raised during the election? Was it and did he address it? I don't know.

If indeed Biden is denied Holy Communion, it is highly improbable that he would change his position, or laws on abortion rights.

Should Biden be condemned to damnation by the church, the debate that would ensue over this matter would open up a host (no pun intended) of related issues that (while it might be a necessary discussion for Catholics to have) would probably cause considerable discomfort by having to deal with a number of thorny issues, which the Catholic church might not really want to talk about.

I have to wonder also if Trudeau might also be concerned about the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops asking similar questions of him. But they are so beleaguered right now over the issue of residential schools and the finding of mass graves of Indigenous children, they might be hard pressed to be pointing fingers at others, calling them sinners. The timing is just not good.

[Arthur Dailey]

What about Brian Mulroney who was the PM when abortion was legalized in Canada? The Roman Catholic Church did not condemn him, nor did it condemn Jean Chretien, Paul Martin and Justin Trudeau all also Roman Catholics who have not attempted to make abortion illegal in Canada.

Seems that the R.C. Church in the USA is attempting to play politics.

[mpare]

There can be little doubt that the US conference of bishops wants to play politics. I'm not sure why, though. I could be wrong, but as I've said before, it's unlikely that Biden will change his position. After that, any influence that the Church may have had with the President will have evaporated.

What about Brian Mulroney who was the PM when abortion was legalized in Canada? The Roman Catholic Church did not condemn him, nor did it condemn Jean Chretien, Paul Martin and Justin Trudeau all also Roman Catholics who have not attempted to make abortion illegal in Canada.

Seems that the R.C. Church in the USA is attempting to play politics.

[Arthur Dailey]

There can be little doubt that the US conference of bishops wants to play politics. I'm not sure why, though. I could be wrong, but as I've said before, it's unlikely that Biden will change his position. After that, any influence that the Church may have had with the President will have evaporated.

I am just old enough to remember that there was a great deal of concern that as a Roman Catholic, JFK's primary allegiance would be to Rome/the Pope/the Church rather than the Constitution/the USA.

Biden is the first Catholic elected President since JFK and only the 2nd in American history.

Although it appears that conservative Catholics are aligning with American Evangelicals, that goes against past history.
Originally the KKK and southern Evangelicals are almost as anti-Catholic as they were anti-'black'.

In my opinion the RC Church should review just who they wish to be allied with.

[mpare]

Weren’t they allied with, or sympathetic to, Trump, because of his purported anti-abortion stance? For that reason, I have had serious doubts about the wisdom of their political choices.

…

In my opinion the RC Church should review just who they wish to be allied with.

[Fore Warned]

I am just old enough to remember that there was a great deal of concern that as a Roman Catholic, JFK's primary allegiance would be to Rome/the Pope/the Church rather than the Constitution/the USA.

Biden is the first Catholic elected President since JFK and only the 2nd in American history.

Although it appears that conservative Catholics are aligning with American Evangelicals, that goes against past history.
Originally the KKK and southern Evangelicals are almost as anti-Catholic as they were anti-'black'.

In my opinion the RC Church should review just who they wish to be allied with.

I have a hard time seeing the present circumstances in the convergence of Christian doctrines, beliefs and views between Catholics and American Evangelicals constituting an alliance.

[bl8d]

I have a hard time seeing the present circumstances in the convergence of Christian doctrines, beliefs and views between Catholics and American Evangelicals constituting an alliance.

true they are far too different in how they spread the gospel
The Catholic faith has used ritual, gold robes and goblets to convince the minds of the less fortunate that it is the chosen messenger of the word of God, for God rewards those that seek and spread his truth.

The Evangelcals ask that you share your wealth with them ,so they can fly the gospel to wherever the word of GOD is needed. God says hs word is need n a hurry and what better way than by Gulstream jet. You become a Secret Agent of God.'s army of provocateurs.
Whle it seems like a clash of linen and polyester, the essental message is the same,. "Have I got a front row seat to sell you"
LOl