2023 - 2024 Toronto Maple Leafs thread

[Pingeye2_fan]

People have broken down Marners point totals. They’re all in the first 3 games of a series for the most part. Playoffs is when you put the points up and as far as he goes poof gone in elimination games. Marner has created more issues than helped in the playoffs. Christ he was almost crying in the penalty box one year also.

Seems despite a boatload of talent, he’s not able to show up when it matters most.
I would say Nylander shows more grit and doesn’t shrink under pressure like Marner does.

If I had to trade one of them it would be Marner, you could get a couple of decent NHL ready players back for him.

[Fredk]

...

Unfortunately, there are shifts, games or even weeks, when he 'floats'. When he is floating not only is he not contributing positively, he is often costing the team.
Which means if you depend on him, eventually he will 'kill you'.

...

In which case he is a no brainer to trade. Some team with less depth will get more value out of Nylander than the leafs will.

[Pingeye2_fan]

In which case he is a no brainer to trade. Some team with less depth will get more value out of Nylander than the leafs will.

For anyone that thinks that’s Nylander now, has not been paying attention.
Occasionally he may need a kick in the butt but you see games where Matthews looks invisible out there.

To say he takes weeks off is just dumb.

[Lefty17]

Nylander needs a coach that doesn’t give him crap for the other 3 issues. Nylander has 5 or 6 good solid games in a row the other guys stink and Nylander is now on the third line. I think Nylander would be a better more engaged played under Babcock.

Dont forget the kid grew up in a NHL dressing room. I’m sure he enjoys the relaxed atmosphere and music at practice but I bet he wants to be worked hard similar to an old school coach.

[Pingeye2_fan]

Nylander needs a coach that doesn’t give him crap for the other 3 issues. Nylander has 5 or 6 good solid games in a row the other guys stink and Nylander is now on the third line. I think Nylander would be a better more engaged played under Babcock.

Dont forget the kid grew up in a NHL dressing room. I’m sure he enjoys the relaxed atmosphere and music at practice but I bet he wants to be worked hard similar to an old school coach.

Could be true, I don’t think we’ve seen his ceiling yet.

[Arthur Dailey]

People have broken down Marners point totals. They’re all in the first 3 games of a series for the most part. .

So you are endorsing the use of analytics/statistical analysis? Which Dubas was accused of relying on too much.

Granted Marner is no Mel Hill, Henri Richard, Claude Lemieux or even Carter Verhaeghe when it comes to scoring in big games.
However Marner is not and never has or will be a 'score first' player. What he is, is one of the best playmaking wingers of his generation.

[Arthur Dailey]

Nylander needs a coach that doesn’t give him crap for the other 3 issues. Nylander has 5 or 6 good solid games in a row the other guys stink and Nylander is now on the third line. I think Nylander would be a better more engaged played under Babcock.

Dont forget the kid grew up in a NHL dressing room. I’m sure he enjoys the relaxed atmosphere and music at practice but I bet he wants to be worked hard similar to an old school coach.

Nylander was a playoff disappointment when playing for the previous Leafs coach.
His performance actually improved under Keefe.

As for his growing up in the NHL, check out his father's record.
His father is reported to have advised William during his contract negotiations/holdout.

His father was alleged to have been accused of not performing up to expectations in tight or important NHL games, while excelling in international competitions. . Statistically he appeared in the NHL playoffs in 9 different seasons, with his team advancing past the first round only once. He had no goals in 6 of theses playoff season, although he statistically performed quite well/put up good point totals in 4 playoff seasons. Two of his best playoff performances statistically were when he was a late season acquisition..

[Fredk]

...

What he is, is one of the best playmaking wingers of his generation.

And he seems to have made decent progress on his defensive game, more so than Nylander.

Caronina's 4 game exit highlights both how close the top teams are now and what a hot goalie will do for a team in the playoffs.

Florida is doing exactly what Montreal did a few years ago, except better.

[Arthur Dailey]

Bruce Arthur regarding the front runner to replace Dubas.
However he does mention that Treliving had a 'gun placed to his head' by his two best players Tkachuk and Gaudreau.

Bruce Arthur

Former Flames GM Jim Treliving is said to be the favourite, and maybe he is. That would mean experience, a man who has worked in a Canadian market, and replacing a GM who won one first-round series in five years with a GM who won two first-round series in nine years in Calgary.

And from an article written by Gare Joyce way back when Kyle Dubas hired Sheldon Keefe to be his coach in The Sood.

The Soo’s hiring of twentysomething whiz-kid Kyle Dubas as GM last year was the product of unconventional thinking. Dubas’s firing of Mike Stapleton and hiring of Keefe weren’t out of the box so much as in your face. It shocked and angered. “People in the league office hit the roof on this one,” says an OHL executive. “Dubas is making a lot of enemies of people who worry about our image.”

[Fredk]

I wonder if it is possible to sign both Mathews and Marner to contracts that expire when Tavares is done and then negotiate an offsetting rate for a longer contract with some of the cap space from letting Tavares go?

[Lefty17]

So you are endorsing the use of analytics/statistical analysis? Which Dubas was accused of relying on too much.

Granted Marner is no Mel Hill, Henri Richard, Claude Lemieux or even Carter Verhaeghe when it comes to scoring in big games.
However Marner is not and never has or will be a 'score first' player. What he is, is one of the best playmaking wingers of his generation.

No I’m using point totals that’s been used for 105 years. We can add up games one thru three and the rest. I don’t use by the other new fancy stats because it doesn’t matter it only matters when putting the puck in the next. Great you almost scored.

[Arthur Dailey]

Sometimes I have to laugh.

Go back to the 2016-17, 2017-18, and 2019-20 threads and you will read people posting how Marner 'drives a line' and in the first two seasons mentioned was a playoff warrior.

During the very same seasons Nylander was lambasted as a floater.

Now despite the fact that he outpointed him in both of the last two playoff seasons, Marner is a floater and Nylander is a warrior.

Wouldn't logic suggest that the truth is somewhere in between?
And that Leaf fans once again are bandwagon jumping and/or overreacting, or jumping the gun?

As for Marner not putting the puck in the net 'when it counts', Marner is a playmaker first, not a scorer. There are other players on the roster who are paid primarily for or depended upon for their goal scoring. Despite the fact that they too might be lacking in other facets of the game.

When we talk about the definition of insanity, Leaf fans and the franchise fall into that category on multiple factors.

Bring in a player new to the franchise and make him captain before he has played a game for the Leafs. Hello Rob Ramage, Dion Phaneuf and John Tavares. (edit as per the post below the last were named captains after their first partial season or full season. However all 3 were parachuted into the role).

Trading draft choices away in the belief that you can get a player who might move you 'over the top'. say goodbye to Scott Niederrmayer, Roberto Luongo, Tyler Seguin, and Dougie Hamilton.

Trading players (often younger) for older players who can add 'truculence' or experience. Say goodbye to Randy Carlyle, George Ferguson, Errol Thompson, Rick Vaive, Steve Thomas, Russ Courtnall and Sean Durzi. (edit add Brad Boyes)

Trading, not protecting or not retaining young players before they have a chance to prove themselves , develop (or in some instances even play for the Leafs): Say goodbye to Garry Unger, Rick Kehoe, Blaine Stoughton, Doug Jarvis, Tuuka Rask, Mason Marchment, and Carter Verhaeghe. (edit would Shawn Thornton and Craig Muni also fall under this category?)

Trading or moving players after the fans have 'turned' on them: say goodbye to Frank Mahovlich, Mike Walton, Larry Murphy, and Bryan McCabe (and the rest of the Muskoka Five). (edit: add Phil Kessel and Phaneuf?)

[Mattv88]

Sometimes I have to laugh.

Go back to the 2016-17, 2017-18, and 2019-20 threads and you will read people posting how Marner 'drives a line' and in the first two seasons mentioned was a playoff warrior.

During the very same seasons Nylander was lambasted as a floater.

Now despite the fact that he outpointed him in both of the last two playoff seasons, Marner is a floater and Nylander is a warrior.

Wouldn't logic suggest that the truth is somewhere in between?
And that Leaf fans once again are bandwagon jumping and/or overreacting, or jumping the gun?

As for Marner not putting the puck in the net 'when it counts', Marner is a playmaker first, not a scorer. There are other players on the roster who are paid primarily for or depended upon for their goal scoring. Despite the fact that they too might be lacking in other facets of the game.

When we talk about the definition of insanity, Leaf fans and the franchise fall into that category on multiple factors.

Bring in a player new to the franchise and make him captain before he has played a game for the Leafs. Hello Rob Ramage, Dion Phaneuf and John Tavares.

Trading draft choices away in the belief that you can get a player who might move you 'over the top'. say goodbye to Scott Niederrmayer, Roberto Luongo, Tyler Seguin, and Dougie Hamilton.

Trading young players for older players who can add 'truculence' or experience. Say goodbye to Randy Carlyle, George Ferguson, Errol Thompson, Rick Vaive, Steve Thomas, Russ Courtnall and Sean Durzi.

Trading, not protecting or not retaining young players before they have a chance to prove themselves (or in some instances even play for the Leafs): Say goodbye to Garry Unger, Rick Kehoe, Blaine Stoughton, Doug Jarvis, Tuuka Rask, Mason Marchment, and Carter Verhaeghe

Trading or moving players after the fans have 'turned' on them: say goodbye to Frank Mahovlich, Mike Walton, Larry Murphy, and Bryan McCabe (and the rest of the Muskoka Five).

Phaneuf and Tavares both played a season wearing an 'A' before they became captains.

[Arthur Dailey]

Phaneuf and Tavares both played a season wearing an 'A' before they became captains.

Thanks.
Yes Phaneuf came to the Leafs in February and was named captain in June.
Tavares was named captain at the start of his second year. The captaincy had been vacant since Phaneuf left the Leafs over 3 years previously.

However both they and Ramage were 'parachuted in'. Which is often a recipe for disaster in the NHL. One prime example being Mark Messier in Vancouver. Despite Messier's reputation of being one of the 'great leaders' in NHL history.

Think that I was suffering from PTSD while making that post as there were just so many infuriating memories of Leaf blunders. Even more that I did not include. For example the fans 'turning' on Phil Kessel.

And I was reminded of another common mistake that the Leafs' franchise often made. Rushing young defensemen into the NHL before they were ready. Resulting in either 'shell shock' or an injury that impacted the remainder of their career; Say hello to Trevor Johansen, Fred Boimistruck, Gary Nylund, Al Iafrate, Luke Richardson, and Drake Berehowsky.

[Arthur Dailey]

Kevin McGran in today's Star has an article on the Leafs' free agents, with projections regarding the type of contract they can expect.

If we want an objective reason for Dubas not deserving to retain his job as GM of the Leafs, what about the fact that he has left the franchise with about one half of an NHL roster and relatively little cap space or prospects to replace these 10 free agents?

As it stands, the Leafs only have $9,143,550 in cap space, according to capfriendly.com. That would rise to $14.7 million if defenceman Jake Muzzin ends up on long-term injured reserve, as expected, and even more if goalie Matt Murray is hurt, traded or bought out.

According to projections by AFP Analytics, a sports consulting firm that is making a name for itself with deep dives into player data and NHL contracts — giving agents, teams and the players themselves a better idea of what they might be worth on the free market.

Says Kyle Stich, founder of AFP Analytics “we’ve basically created a projection method where we narrow in on comparable players: see what they signed for historically, see what (the average annual value) was, what the percentage of the cap ceiling was at the time of their signing.”

The following numbers are based on a cap ceiling of $83.5 million (U.S.) for the 2023-24 season, although the NHL may yet see a way to increase that.

Ryan O’Reilly: Last deal $7.5-million average (seven years, $52 million).
AFP projects $5,482,238.89 average over three years (6.57 per cent of cap).

Michael Bunting: Last deal $950,000 average (two years, $1.9 million)
AFP projects $5,261,168 average over five years (6.3 per cent of cap)

Ilya Samsonov: Last deal One year, $1.8 million
AFP projects $5,004,191.30 average on a four-year deal (5.99 per cent of cap)

Alex Kerfoot: Last deal $3.5-million average (four years, $14 million)
AFP projects $3,523,461.43 average on another four-year deal (4.22 per cent of cap)

Erik Gustafsson: Last deal One year, $800,000
AFP projects $3,413,520.73 average on a three-year deal (4.09 per cent of cap)

Justin Holl: Last deal $2-million average (three years, $6 million)
AFP projects $3,028,145.65 average on a three-year deal (3.63 per cent of cap)

David Kämpf: Last deal $1.5-million average (two years, $3 million)
AFP projects $1,776,023.03 average on a two-year deal (2.13 per cent of cap)

Luke Schenn: Last deal $850,000 average (two years, $1.7 million)
AFP projects $1,559,678.79 average on a four-year deal (1.87 per cent of cap)

Noel Acciari: Last deal One year, $1.25 million
AFP projects $1,539,290 average on a four-year deal (1.84 per cent of cap)

Zach Aston-Reese: Last deal One year, $840,630
AFP projects $1,081,810.47 average on two-year deal (1.3 per cent of cap)