shaft loading - what role does it play in shaft flex/selection ?

[ManFromMoffat]

Decided to start this thread after seeing re-energized shaft flex poll and some of the comments on it.

Not sure if shaft loading correctly encapsulates many of the non-speed aspects of a swing.

My take -- consistent with some others' view -- is that it's borderline absurd to choose a shaft flex or shaft in general based on driver swing speed ... and yet many people talk about it that way. My view, based on stuff I recall reading a few years ago, is that factors such as tempo, swing length and general transition characteristics are all just as important as ultimate club head speed.

So, I'll be interested to hear others' thoughts on this. I'm especially interested in those from fitters, builders, instructors and equipment reps.

[TLT Dan]

Re: shaft loading - what role does it play in shaft flex/selection ?

Decided to start this thread after seeing re-energized shaft flex poll and some of the comments on it.

Not sure if shaft loading correctly encapsulates many of the non-speed aspects of a swing.

My take -- consistent with some others' view -- is that it's borderline absurd to choose a shaft flex or shaft in general based on driver swing speed ... and yet many people talk about it that way. My view, based on stuff I recall reading a few years ago, is that factors such as tempo, swing length and general transition characteristics are all just as important as ultimate club head speed.

So, I'll be interested to hear others' thoughts on this. I'm especially interested in those from fitters, builders, instructors and equipment reps.

Very true - about tempo and transition.

As an example my father for years had to play a stiffer shaft than what his 65 - 70 mph swing speed suggested. He has a very short backswing and had a fairly quick transition - putting a fair bit of load that could not be recovered by the very soft shaft, so we had to go pretty much to a soft R just so the shaft could recover and get the face square.

On the other side of the coin, guys that are very smooth back, with a smooth transition and return can often play softer than what their swing speed suggests.

[Weirfan]

Re: shaft loading - what role does it play in shaft flex/selection ?

the earlier in the swing you unload the less that flex and shaft profile matter.

[bl8d]

Re: shaft loading - what role does it play in shaft flex/selection ?

@manfrommoffat. google Tom Wishon's take on shaft flex and relationship on release.

[ManFromMoffat]

Re: shaft loading - what role does it play in shaft flex/selection ?

Thanks for your replies.

Here's Tom Wishon's WRX 3-part series on shafts. Part 2 discusses transition, tempo, etc.

http://www.golfwrx.com/40557/taking-the-guesswork-out-of-selecting-shafts-part-1/


http://www.golfwrx.com/44239/wishon-taking-shaft-fitting-from-guessing-to-specifics/


http://www.golfwrx.com/55733/wishon-facts-about-what-shafts-what-shafts-do-and-who-they-do-it-for/

[Jeff Shuster Golf]

Re: shaft loading - what role does it play in shaft flex/selection ?

Decided to start this thread after seeing re-energized shaft flex poll and some of the comments on it.

Not sure if shaft loading correctly encapsulates many of the non-speed aspects of a swing.

My take -- consistent with some others' view -- is that it's borderline absurd to choose a shaft flex or shaft in general based on driver swing speed ... and yet many people talk about it that way. My view, based on stuff I recall reading a few years ago, is that factors such as tempo, swing length and general transition characteristics are all just as important as ultimate club head speed.

So, I'll be interested to hear others' thoughts on this. I'm especially interested in those from fitters, builders, instructors and equipment reps.

"factors such as tempo, swing length and general transition characteristics are all just as important as ultimate club head speed."

These are indeed all important factors and characteristics of an individual golfers swing. All should be considered and evaluated when going through the club, or in this case "shaft fitting" process.
This reiterates the discussion of shaft flex vs shaft profile or the EI curve / bend profile of a given shaft.
The bend profile of the shaft is the ultimate method for measuring the flex and profile of the given shaft. It is basically a curved line illustrating the relative stiffness of the golf shaft starting at the butt and ending at the tip.
(In many cases, the EI bend profile will vary significantly even within the same brand and model of shaft, but in different weight categories.)

Many years ago we did not have the technology available to us that we have today. We were forced to rely on the letter designation for choosing the best-suited flex.
As the manufacturing process continued to evolve it allowed for greater control over the entire process. We were able to consider the “profile” of a shaft referring to the '3 zones' butt, mid, and tip stiffness. For example in simple terms, a softer tip shaft, would launch the ball higher, a stiffer tip shaft would flight the ball down.
Some less knowledgeable fitters will still use this information today when making a shaft selection. “You need a high launch shaft because your launch angle is too low…”

It is a very small community of professional club fitters around the world who take there profession and craft seriously enough to continue their education of shaft knowledge and performance characteristics to truly dial in the best equipment for the golfers who are educated enough to seek out there help.

After all, what is that letter designation on golf shafts? (L,A,R,S,X). It is simply an arbitrary letter used by club/shaft manufacturers to give the general consumer a reference point of which shaft might be best suited for them.
Swing fast....Stiff, swing slow...Reg....hit it 300+....X-Stiff.

It is no secret that vast majority of golfers (approx. 97%) have not been properly fit for there equipment by a certified independent club fitter.
Therefore the shaft manufacturers must put some designation on the shaft to help the consumer make an educated guess as to which one will work better for them.

I found it very interesting when I started to study the EI curves of various brands and models of shafts.
I have been using the same shaft in my driver since 2010. (Save for testing new products that I think may “the one” because fortunately for me, that is my job ☺ )
There is one other shaft that I tested last year when it came out and I played it for a few rounds. It is the only other shaft that I felt was almost interchangeable with my go to shaft. When I compared the two profiles, or EI curves of these two shafts, I found that you could almost overlay one on top of the other they were so close.
The proof was in the pudding. This is the profile that works best for my swing characteristics.

"it's borderline absurd to choose a shaft flex or shaft in general based on driver swing speed ... and yet many people talk about it that way."
I couldn't agree more. I think it is absurd to buy equipment at all without the advice and knowledge of a professional fitter/builder.

I hope I helped to shed some light on the intricacies of today's premium golf shafts.
I am happy to answer any specific questions.

[TourIQ]

shaft loading - what role does it play in shaft flex/selection ?

I found it very interesting when I started to study the EI curves of various brands and models of shafts.

Jeff have you produced EI curves for the same brand and model (possible different lot #'s) only to find out the profile are so different 1 shaft does not match the others?

[Weirfan]

Re: shaft loading - what role does it play in shaft flex/selection ?

Jeff have you produced EI curves for the same brand and model (possible different lot #'s) only to find out the profile are so different 1 shaft does not match the others?

Tim Hewitt used to run a site called shaft profiles .com. It was a great repository for those many clubfitters and builders who performed shaft zone profiling, of which there used to be quite a few. The site is down now as Tim has moved onto another field of work and no longer supports it, but it had info on hundreds of shafts.

Often there would be shaft data on several shafts of the same brand and "labelled" flex presented and it was very common to significant differences in the readings. It was also not uncommon to find shafts labelled "R" as having a stiffer profile than one labelled "s"

These are things we all know already and that inconsistency from shaft to shaft has not changed.

Despite variations The shaft profile curves would be similar though and this was the important factor. One could search out a shaft with a soft butt but stiff tip ( my personal favourite)

Profiling is far from perfect but infinitely better than using only butt frequency or Shaft flex letter designations. I think today that the majority of golfers know that letter designations if flex are completely meaningless and will search out manufacturer shaft profiles, at least I hope so.

Tom Wishon has maintained an extensive shaft profile software data base for many many years. This is available for purchase and includes regular updates on an annualized basis as new shafts that come out are profiled.

http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Wishon-Golf-Bend-Profile-Software-Beginning-Tutorial.pdf

[TourIQ]

Re: shaft loading - what role does it play in shaft flex/selection ?

Despite variations The shaft profile curves would be similar though and this was the important factor. One could search out a shaft with a soft butt but stiff tip ( my personal favourite)

Peter talk of soft butt and stiff tip is more suited for the Jian Ghomeshi thread.

[TourIQ]

Re: shaft loading - what role does it play in shaft flex/selection ?

Can someone look up the shaft matche(s) for a 2005 model Grafalloy Comp NT NATO 65-X in 0.335 tip. Also how would you describe this shaft? Thanks in advance.

[gbrgolf]

Re: shaft loading - what role does it play in shaft flex/selection ?

Lot's of great information here, I'll throw in a few variables to consider. First, 2 shafts can have very similar profiles (static specs) yet different materials and lays of materials can produce very different "feel". Golf is not a game of static specifications ;-)
Second, most "blueprinting" published in the past used various methods based on the machines that the technician had at their disposal. I don't believe any took into account multiple planes of a shaft to determined true consistency. So although previous analysis has been useful, few if any have been truly accurate.
Lastly, every blue printing system that I have seen in the past ran a risk of some human error.
Having said all that, the only true way to find which setup (shaft & head combo) remains to see a professional clubfitter and test multiple combinations to determined which is truly best for your unique swing (see earlier posts for the many variables that need to be taken into account!).
Just some thoughts....

[TourIQ]

Re: shaft loading - what role does it play in shaft flex/selection ?

Lot's of great information here, I'll throw in a few variables to consider. First, 2 shafts can have very similar profiles (static specs) yet different materials and lays of materials can produce very different "feel". Golf is not a game of static specifications ;-)

Agree nearly impossible to quantify feel as it is different from golfer to golfer.
Why most coaches teach technique and the various angles ... it's easier.

Second, most "blueprinting" published in the past used various methods based on the machines that the technician had at their disposal. I don't believe any took into account multiple planes of a shaft to determined true consistency. So although previous analysis has been useful, few if any have been truly accurate.

Gawain are you talking about club blueprinting or shaft blueprinting as a component of club blueprinting?

Yes change the measurement system and get different numbers I hope I interpreted your meaning of 'plane'.

Lastly, every blue printing system that I have seen in the past ran a risk of some human error.

Human error of the builder can be taken into account and dramatically reduced using standardized work, quality management techniques w/ data driven checks.
For our personal sets, documenting 350 pieces of data over a full bag of 14 clubs can yield a very repeatable process which can be replicated years later (with newer model of clubhead) with nearly identical results.
One family member is playing a set of matched hybrid-2-wedge approximately 100X's tighter on spec than mass produced name brand.

Now if I was blueprinting shafts, I would want to know where the NBP or FLO plane was to start. No point in getting zone frequencies without knowing the relationship between plane and cpm.

Having said all that, the only true way to find which setup (shaft & head combo) remains to see a professional clubfitter and test multiple combinations to determined which is truly best for your unique swing (see earlier posts for the many variables that need to be taken into account!). Just some thoughts....

Some good thoughts Gawain. It also helps when the golfer knows what fits his/her eye at address to inspire extra confidence.

[gbrgolf]

Re: shaft loading - what role does it play in shaft flex/selection ?

Harry,
I was simply referring to the measurements of a blank shaft. I understand that a great club maker can reduce "human error" and check all specs to ridiculously good tolerances during the "build". hence the difference between a club built by a qualified club maker rather than the OEM. I think we now tend to use the term "Clubfitter" too liberally, somehow my goal is to find a way to differentiate between the clubfitter that orders from an OEM for the build and the clubfitter that fits and builds internally. I've been discussing this with Mike Stachura (editor of Golf Digest's "Top 100" club fitters, in the USA), to your point, I think that there really has to be distinction between the two.
Regarding the OP's original question, there is some very cool technology out there to measure many aspects of the golf swing and certainly "load" is one of the most important factors as to what influences the performance of a golf shaft. Also, please understand that certain shafts are easier to "load" than others based on their profile.

[rsfairwaysandgreens]

Re: shaft loading - what role does it play in shaft flex/selection ?

Very interesting discussion

I have always played a regular. I ended up at the GT demo sale last week and picked up a Berha with what I thought was regular shaft. Played it last Sunday and loved it. Played it on Saturday and loved it. On the 5th tee box my buddy says that shaft is perfect for you. I happen to look at the flex and I said, oh crap, its stiff. Ball flight and trajectory is perfect for me. And it still worked for the rest of the round ! Shoudl have been paying more attention but I wasnt too concerned since I thought I had reg and had the 30 day return policy to fall back on

Anyways he says you generate so much torque at the bottom of your swing that you probably need the stiff shaft to keep everything squared up. Well it works for me and its the last thing I thought would have worked for me....

So the comment above about where you load it I think has way more influence on the shaft flex needed than swing speed. And it varies so much from manufacturer to manufacturer. Never assume is probably the morale of this story

[TourIQ]

Re: shaft loading - what role does it play in shaft flex/selection ?

Harry,
I was simply referring to the measurements of a blank shaft. I understand that a great club maker can reduce "human error" and check all specs to ridiculously good tolerances during the "build". hence the difference between a club built by a qualified club maker rather than the OEM. I think we now tend to use the term "Clubfitter" too liberally, somehow my goal is to find a way to differentiate between the clubfitter that orders from an OEM for the build and the clubfitter that fits and builds internally. I've been discussing this with Mike Stachura (editor of Golf Digest's "Top 100" club fitters, in the USA), to your point, I think that there really has to be distinction between the two.
Regarding the OP's original question, there is some very cool technology out there to measure many aspects of the golf swing and certainly "load" is one of the most important factors as to what influences the performance of a golf shaft. Also, please understand that certain shafts are easier to "load" than others based on their profile.

All great points Gawain. Ok so your blueprint was with respect to the shaft. I understand you have one of the most advanced pieces of shaft testing equipment, and it would be nice to see more adoption in the golf industry as to standards, but until then we seek out the best and use what we have.

I like your idea and initiative to differentiate between fitter and builder as they are vastly different.