Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

[Ignatius Reilly]

Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

that and money talks in the pro world.

I won't argue that!

But I will point out that money talks even more in the AM world.

OEMs give away (pay, actually ) clubs for pros to use. They make all their money selling to us AMs. IF they could give away a set of SL clubs to pros they would. The pros would accept them (and get paid ) IF they helped them win or at least move up the ranks.

Neither the OEMs or the pros are following this course, which says something to me.

I'll be honest - SL makes a lot of sense to me. It seems to work for Deschambeau. (note, I only used "seems" because I don't think we know how well he may play with regular clubs)

So... why isn't one (or all) of the OEMs picking it up? They're not totally old fashioned and stuck in their ways. Just look at the putter designs, grip sizes, shaft materials, club head composite materials and designs and all that that they've changed in the past years. Nike with their butt-ugly Slingshots. TM with adjustable screws and sliders and hosels. Mallet putters....

Or to circle right back to your point: Money talks in the pro world.

[TLT Dan]

Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

SL still can have problems if you just simply build them to the recommended specifications - lets say 63 lie and 36 1/2" length. This is not going to fit everyone. In fact it is only going to fit a small percentage. This is like saying a standard 8 iron fits everyone. With my TLT Fitting system I got 16 different lengths for the 8 iron - all because 1 size does not fit all.

A fitter's expertise is still required. If players just assume that the recommended SL build is followed - they will stand athletic for every club. Not true. The 36 1/2" length and the accompanying 63 degree will only fit a select few.

This could by why (perhaps) you won't see the OEM's join in because this is still custom fitting and not their 1 size fits all model.

SL is not going to be for everyone, but it still comes down to - these also need to be custom fit.

[Tintin]

Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

. If we take Ryan's post as gospel (

You shouldn't. He says BD games a 45 inch driver and his irons are set up at 73 degrees of lie. Yet if you look at the following article

http://www.golfwrx.com/308080/bryson...eau-witb-2015/

BD's driver is 43 inches long and the lie of his irons are 69*. Either we are misinformed or they do not have their facts straight.The 2015 WITB is different than the WITB2016. (43 inches driver vs 45 inches and 69 degrees lie angle vs 73 lie angle in 2016) Did he suddenly grow taller?

Moreover his article does not mention total weigh ,swingweight/MOI, lie angles etc...

http://www.golfwrx.com/308080/bryson-dechambeau-witb-2015/

Driver: TaylorMade SLDR 430 (10.5 degrees)
Shaft: Oban Kiyoshi Gold 65X (05 Flex)
Length: 43 inches
3 Wood: TaylorMade SLDR (15 degrees)
Shaft: Oban Kiyoshi Gold 75X (05 Flex)
Driving Iron: TaylorMade Tour Preferred UDI (2 iron)
Shaft: Fujikura Motore Speeder 9.8X HB
Length: 39.5 inches
Irons: Edel Cavity Back (20, 26, 30, 34, 38, 42 and 46 degrees)
Shafts: KBS Tour C-Taper 125 S+
Length: 37.5 inches
Lie Angle: 69 degrees
Swing Weight: C8
Wedges: Edel Cavity Back (50, 55, 60 degrees)
Shafts: KBS Tour C-Taper 125 S+
Length: 37.5 inches
Lie Angle: 69 degrees
Swing Weight: C8

Putter: Edel Torque Balanced (Custom)
Grip: SuperStroke Slim 3.0

[Tintin]

Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

That being said IMHO there is no need to build 9 iron and wedges at 37.5 inches unless you have a bad back or 6'10 with short arms or a proponent of the SA swing where the left wrist is in line with the shaft and the posture is more upright. Moreover those are scoring clubs therefore a shorter swing and setting up closer to the ball will bring about more control.

Most golfers struggle with their long irons. So an ideal build would bring about shorter than standard long irons and standard mid irons and short irons.

[Weirfan]

Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

The majority of clubs (maybe 1/2 - 2/3 of them?) aren't aimed at pros or expert players. They've got a lot of kid's sets, beginner sets, budget sets, game improvement...

correct

I have not claimed or read anywhere that SL is being aimed at pros or expert players either. in fact the existing designs tend to be more GI oriented in nature.

we don't dismiss or say that those budget and GI sets on GT shelves are not "good" designs because they are not played on tour.

the question/criticism was that if SL was such a good design why are they not played on tour?
ie : it cant be good if pros don't play it. I disagree with that sheltered view.

There are and have been lots of well designed clubheads that have never seen the tour. Golfworks and Golfsmith still make and have made some high quality and excellent forged players designs. I think only one or two of those designs have ever been played by pros. ( Scott Verplank was one)

Is it fair to question the quality or credibility of those companies and their designs because they don't get tour play?

by the same token we should not dismiss SL or TLT as not being a good design concept because they are new and not played (more) on tour.

[Weirfan]

Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Not sure if this was posted previously but a good Q and A that addresses a lot of the questions raised in this thread:


What is the Reason a Golfer Might Consider Making a Change from Normal Incremental Length Irons to a Single Length Set of Irons?

The technical basis behind the creation of a set of single length irons is to say that if all the clubs have the same length, the same total weight, the same headweight, and the same balance point it will enable the golfer to use the same stance, posture, spine angle, swing plane – the same everything in the swing. As such, the single length approach has a chance to offer a higher level of swing repeatability and shot consistency for each of the clubs in the set.
At the same time, it must be said that many golfers have achieved very good swing and shot consistency using irons built to normal incremental lengths which are very accurately custom fit to their size, strength, athletic ability and swing characteristics. However, if a golfer has suffered from chronic or occasional shot inconsistency, converting to a single length concept could offer some help.


What is the Technical Explanation to Support an Argument About Single Length Irons Being Better for a Golfer than Conventional Incremental Length Irons?

In a single length set of irons, every club is made so that everything that has anything to do with swing feel is the same in each club – same length, same shaft weight, same total weight, same head weight, same swingweight, same balance point, same MOI, and the same shaft stiffness/bend profile design. The only element that is different within single length clubs are the loft angles, to enable the single length clubs to each hit the ball different distances.
Normal incremental length sets of irons cannot duplicate that many different fitting elements. While it is possible to build incremental length sets of irons to all be matched to the same MOI, each club will be different in total weight, head weight, swingweight, and balance point.
As such, the technical reason for creating a single length set of irons is to offer the golfer a chance for improvement in swing repeatability, swing consistency and shot consistency because every club is as perfectly matched for every possible aspect that has anything to do with swing feel.


Why Did Sets of Irons Evolve to be Made to Different Lengths?

The purpose of a set of irons is to have each iron hit the ball a specific different distance with equal distance gaps between clubs through the set. That enables a golfer to choose an appropriate club for the different distances golfers will find themselves from the greens when playing a round of golf.
Early club designers learned there were a number of things in the design of irons that would cause each club to hit the ball a different distance. First is a different loft angle on each iron, with the spacing in degrees of loft the same between each iron. Second is a progression of different lengths so the golfer’s clubhead speed would intentionally change to coordinate with the different lofts to hit the ball a different distance with each iron. Third is an increase in the total weight of the irons as they become shorter, which coordinates with the shorter length to cause the golfer to swing the shorter clubs at progressively slower swing speeds.
More recently, research into shot performance has shown that the distance between the different irons in a set comes 80-85% from the loft angle change from club to club, and 15-20% from the length change from club to club through the set. As such, length change within a set of irons is much less important for a distance difference between irons than are the differences in the loft angles through the set. This opens the door for a single length set to be a viable alternative to the conventional incremental length set.

[Weirfan]

Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Continued...


Why Haven’t any of the Big Golf Companies Created and Offered a Set of Single Length Clubs?

Chiefly because of a lack of confidence that such a different type of set could garner enough demand to justify the cost of development and marketing to be able to last for 2 or more years in the market. When Tommy Armour Golf offered their single length EQL model, it did not exactly show much in the way of longer term success for the costs associated with its development and promotion.
Golf has always been a game steeped with traditions. Golfers as a whole have demonstrated a general and consistent tendency to not deviate too far outside the norm of such traditions in the game.
This is also true when it comes to certain aspects related to golf clubs. It has been proven over and over that developments in the design, shape and concept of golf clubs have to remain within a narrow range of change – if you go too far outside the box of tradition, golfers will reject such changes and will simply refuse to purchase the clubs if they are considered to be “too different”.
Most of the golf companies have believed that a single length set of golf clubs would push things too far in the minds of most golfers so the sets would not be able to sell in a high enough volume to justify the cost of development, inventory and marketing.
If the clubs are all to be made to one Length and one Lie Angle, what is there for golfers to be custom fit in a set of Single Length Irons?
Every one of the key fitting specifications in any set of irons, that’s what – the lofts, lies, shaft flex, shaft bend profile, shaft weight, total weight, headweight feel (swingweight or MOI), grip style and grip size. Not only that, but it is possible that some golfers could be more comfortable with a slightly different single length than other golfers. In short, even though the lengths of each iron will be the same, what that length should be as well as each one of the other key fitting specifications should be custom fit and custom built for each golfer.
Single length does NOT mean “one size fits all” in the manner of the way big golf companies sell their clubs in standard form, off the rack. Single length sets still need to be properly custom fit to each golfer based on their size, strength, athletic ability and swing characteristics.


What About Single Length Clubs for Tall or Short Players? Such Players Regularly are Fit for “overlength” or “underlength” irons in conventional iron sets. What About “overlength” or “underlength” in Single Length sets?

That’s an interesting point in Single Length set fitting. Think about it this way, using the following example. Let’s say you have two golfers and after a fitting analysis for a conventional set of irons, it is determined that Golfer A needs his lengths to be +1” over standard, while Golfer B is best fit into a standard length set. That means the 5 iron in Golfer A’s set would be 39” while the 5 iron in Golfer B’s set would be 38”.
But let’s say that both Golfers become aware of the Single Length concept and express an interest to be fit into such a set. And let’s also say that the Single Length set both see is offered in a “standard” single length of 37”. Does Golfer A need his Single Length set to be 38” since he was advised to use a +1” over standard length in his conventional set of irons?
Probably not, and here’s why. In Golfer A’s conventional set of irons, 37” is the length of his +1” over length #9 iron. While in Golfer B’s conventional iron set, 37” is the length of his standard length #7 iron. Thus it could be said that the 37” single length would be a proper fit for either golfer, even though in a conventional set Golfer A measured to need +1” longer than standard.
Interesting, eh?
In the end, there may be an occasional situation in which a golfer who needs a longer length in a conventional iron set may need the length of a Single Length set to be a bit longer than the length range the set was designed to follow. However, we do urge clubmakers to try to keep all golfers within this range between 36.5 and 37 inches for purposes of more successfully fitting the golfer to a suitable total weight + headweight feel in the clubs.


Are Single Length Irons Better for Average to Less Skilled Golfers or are they Viable for Good Players as well?

During the time between the mid 1980s and mid 2010s when only a few isolated companies offered single length sets of irons, most people were led to believe that single length irons were more aimed at average to less skilled golfers. It can be said that Bryson deChambeau’s wins in the NCAA and US Amateur pretty much blew that thought out of the water.
As with normal sets of irons aimed at average vs good players, the main differences fall in the areas of traditional vs game improvement iron HEAD designs, coupled with fitting differences in the shafts, total weight, swingweight (headweight feel), lie and grip size/style. Most companies that offer Single Length irons are not likely to offer multiple clubhead models as they do with conventional length iron models unless the demand for such a delineation in Single Length head model were to become large enough to justify a better player version to contrast to the game improvement version.


What is the Potential Drawback in Using a Set of Single Length Irons vs a Set of Conventional Incremental Length Irons?

There are three primary areas in which previous Single Length irons have fallen short of the performance golfers are used to with their conventional incremental length iron sets.
Depending on the single length chosen, the golfer may lose enough clubhead speed with the lower loft irons to cause a loss of distance for the lower number irons in a Single Length set vs in a conventional length set.
Also depending on the single length chosen, the golfer may find that shot distances with the high loft irons and wedges are longer than the golfer was used to in the conventional length set. This could happen if the single length is more than 1” longer than the length of the high loft irons/wedges in the conventional set.
Following from both #1 and #2 above, the distance gaps between each single length iron could be compressed, shorter than what the golfer was used to with the conventional set of irons.
It must be noted that the main reason these problems have occurred with previous Single Length iron sets are because the sets were made with conventional steel clubheads with the same lofts and 4* loft gaps used in conventional iron sets, coupled with a single length that was >1” shorter than the low loft iron lengths and >1” longer than the high loft iron lengths in the golfer’s conventional set. In other words, by customizing the length, the lofts and loft gaps, and the clubhead design, it is possible for a modern Single Length set to overcome these previous problems that have been seen with existing Single Length sets.


Can a Conventional Set of Incremental Length Irons be Converted into a Set of Single Length Irons?

Not without either a lot of lead tape on the lower loft heads and a lot of grinding of weight off the higher loft heads in the conventional set. Not to mention the potential difficulty of bending the lie angle of some of the heads to the required lie for the golfer for the one single length chosen.
In a Single Length set, all the clubheads must be designed and manufactured to be the same exact headweight AND with the same lie angle. This is a requirement for the Single Length clubs to all end up with the same total weight, same swing weight, same head weight feel and same balance point – the elements that ensure each club exhibits the same swing feel.
Conventional set clubheads have to be designed each with a different lie angle and each with a different head weight to coordinate with the different lengths to allow the clubs to end up with the same swingweight.
Golfers who are interested in a Single Length set are going to have to test hit clubs properly engineered and manufactured for assembly as a Single Length set to be able to try the concept. It is completely impractical to alter an existing iron set to the Single Length concept.


What About Woods? Can a Single Length Set of Woods Also be a Viable Change for a Golfer to make with his or her Equipment?

Tommy Armour Golf Company thought so back in 1989 when they introduced the EQL full sets of golf clubs. In the EQL all the woods from driver to 7-wood were made to be the length of a standard 5-wood – 42”. This became the biggest area of golfer dissatisfaction with the EQL. While the golfers could hit the 42” driver with improved consistency and accuracy, the much shorter 42” length brought about a significant loss of clubhead speed which resulted in a marked loss of driver distance for most of the golfers who tried the EQL.
Take distance away from the driver and you end up with a very unhappy golfer. As such this was one of the main things that killed the possible success of the EQL.
With Single Length irons it is possible to change lofts and engineer a higher COR face into the design of the low loft irons to prevent them from losing distance when built to a single length that is shorter than the length of the low loft irons in the conventional set. Not so with a driver. Drivers have been at the top of the COR limit in the rules for over 15 years. And lower loft doesn’t add distance because with the driver, loft has to be matched to the golfer’s clubhead speed to maximize distance for each golfer.
So if you build a driver as short as a 5 wood, for many golfers that will result in a drop in clubhead speed and distance that cannot be made up in any other way other than to go back to a longer length.

[Weirfan]

Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Why Haven’t Other Tournament Golfers Begun to Change to Single Length Irons since Bryson deChambeau’s Success in High Level Amateur Tournaments ?


If you think normal amateur golfers cling to tradition and resist change, just wait until you take a look into that trait among tour pros and very serious competitive amateurs. Shoot, there are still a lot of those players clinging to a muscleback blade in their irons!
But one can never say never. Even though Bryson deChambeau is a top ranked amateur, the day will come when he will move on to the PGA Tour. If he continues to play well as a pro, you can count on the fact that a few of his fellow pros are going to be very curious to the point of wanting to at least experiment in the off season with a Single Length set.
On the other hand, deChambeau employs a very different swing technique with his Single Length set that may very well cloud and confuse the way other pros look at the possible use of a Single Length set. Single Length sets do NOT require the Moe Norman Single Plane swing technique to perform as designed. Bryson deChambeau just happened to combine a Single Length set with his desire to pursue the Single Plane swing technique.
But because deChambeau would be the only player on tour using a Single Length set and the only player using a Single Plane swing, it is possible that other pros may have the mistaken belief that to play a Single length set requires switching to the Single Plane swing technique. For those who mistakenly adopt this belief, it is unlikely those players will ever touch a Single Length set.
But for pros who understand that a Single Length set could be used with any swing technique, who knows. Many tour pros have always been known to have a case of “rabbit ears”, meaning when they see someone else using something new and doing well, they get the interest to try it as well in their ongoing search for the perfect club!

[Leftygolfer30]

Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

What's your source for the above Q and A?

[Ignatius Reilly]

Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

What's your source for the above Q and A?

It's from Wishon: http://wishongolf.com/technology/inf...-length-irons/

The final point makes me cringe. He starts by saying pros are very change resistant and finishes saying they're always looking for a better club. In between he makes the same point about swing planes and SL clubs about 5 times.

I'm really trying not to be critical, but....

[Leftygolfer30]

Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

It's from Wishon: http://wishongolf.com/technology/inf...-length-irons/

The final point makes me cringe. He starts by saying pros are very change resistant and finishes saying they're always looking for a better club. In between he makes the same point about swing planes and SL clubs about 5 times.

I'm really trying not to be critical, but....

Thank you.

And he's biased because he's selling SL clubs.

[Weirfan]

Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

It's from Wishon: http://wishongolf.com/technology/inf...-length-irons/

The final point makes me cringe. He starts by saying pros are very change resistant and finishes saying they're always looking for a better club.

..

I saw that too but think he was clear earlier that change for pros had a limit , as long as it is or was not too drastic and "within the box". He feels SL is outside that box.

In the latter I don't take him meaning that pros will openly accept it, but that perhaps Bryson might be able to open some of their eyes if he continues to do well with them . Perhaps this was the motivation for the Euro player to give them a try, I don't know.

notwithstanding, he addresses many of the questions that some here have asked and discusses the merits and challenges of SL. Sounds like he isn't feeling that it will gain wider acceptance on tour. Again, IMHO, that doesn't mean it's a design concept without merit.


He also leaves an email contact if you had a question or wanted further clarification as to what he means. He usually replies himself and fairly promptly.

contact@wishongolf.com

[TLT Dan]

Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

Wishon did many iterations of these clubs looking for all the deficiencies (distance gaps), and did a great amount of testing. Modifications were made and try - try again.

Wishon is well respected in the golfing community and is a very well informed designer. Payne Steward spent time with Tom working to perfect a set for use, but his untimely demise cut the project short. Payne went to him for a reason. I expect it was knowledge. No they were not looking at single length as it was not a focus at the time.

I expect these Wishon heads to perform very well due to the research that went into them.

[Jasonp]

Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

The only thing I don't understand about the concept of SL was lengthening the 8/9/wedges to the 6 or 7 iron length depending on company.

Would make much more sense to me if say all woods same length (maybe not driver)

All hybrids/irons 3-7 same length 7iron length)
8-PW all same length 9iron length)
GW-LW all same length.

Your shorter irons are your scoring clubs the shorter they are typically more accurate you will be. Yes lofts get adjusted for gaps but this doesn't address accuracy/dispersion.

My accuracy and dispersion always gets better as I get closer to wedges.

The other issue for me that would make me hesitant to try it full bag is trying to chip/pitch/flop with a 36.5-37.5" wedge. Would be like me hitting pitches/flops with my current 7iron. (Chips I am one who chips with all of my clubs from hybrid to LW)

If they made a hybrid set say
3/4/5 woods/3/4 hybrids all at about 38"
3-7iron at say 37"
8-PW at 36"
GW-LW at 35"

I'd give that a try. I could even maybe go and agree to have all clubs from 3-9 iron same length but no way I'd want my wedges longer and same as irons.

[ctv1]

Re: Single Length Irons? Interesting Read

For us mere mortals (that don't swing at 120 mph) the challenge with a single length set of clubs is the longer clubs don't hit it far enough.

So What I am going to try is the following.

I am going to replace my current 5,6,7 irons with replacements that will be an 8 iron length.

The three new irons are bent to an 8 iron lie (63 degrees) and the lofts have a 5 degree spacing (30, 25, 20 degrees). They will be reshafted with 8 iron length shafts. In an effort to get the swingweights closer the shafts will progressively get heavier. I am using recoil shafts which are available in numerous weights, 7 iron recoil 680, 6 iron recoil 95, 4 iron recoil 125.

In a further effort to keep the correct distance gapping I chose long hitting irons for these replacements. The 7 and 6 are TM speedblades and the 4 is a 2015 callaway big bertha.

I also plan to use 3 hybrids 16, 19 and 23 degrees. They will all be at a relatively short 39.5 in. The 16 and 19 degree are the long hitting Callaway XR hybrids.

Driver will be traditional length.

Not true single length, but a much simpler set-up than having 13 different length clubs. I'll have really only 4 lengths, wedges, short irons, short hybrid and driver.

For me anyway, with my traditional set, the clubs that gave me the most trouble last year were my longer irons (4,5,6), my 18 degree hybrid at 41 in and my 3 wood. With my test set these trouble clubs are gone ......