Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

[Weirfan]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

They're also a 1/2 inch longer. But I agree with you wholeheartedly. I just had to say it

You weren't wrong, The 3 degrees and 1/2 inch added length is going to account for a sizeable chunk of that 17 yards.

[Phatchrisrules]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

They're also a 1/2 inch longer. But I agree with you wholeheartedly. I just had to say it

You weren't wrong, The 3 degrees and 1/2 inch added length is going to account for a sizeable chunk of that 17 yards.

As his fitter, I am going to chime in here. At the end of the day, BOZI007 came to me saying he wanted to get back to his old yardages. He felt like he was hitting 1-2 more clubs into the greens than he used to. He is not an out of shape guy by any stretch of the imagination; just age, and flexibility have caught up with him to an extent. How many of you can honestly say you haven't lost a bit of yardage from when you were 44 to 57? I know I sure will!!!

At any rate, yes, the loft certainly did help, but we needed to get him something stronger lofted. He hit his s59 7 iron with close to 8000 RPMs of backspin at 23* of launch. That is 4* too high, with close to 2000 RPMs more spin than needed. All golf clubs are the same, so I'll use the analogy of a driver, as most on here are well versed in the optimal for a driver. What happens if you launched a driver at 17* with 4300 RPMs of spin? I think we all know the answer is that it would go absolutely dead straight but nowhere. He was also using the lowest spinning shaft available from Ping, the DGS, which is actually a Dynamic Gold s400, so heavy as heck, low launch, and very low spin. Yet, here he is, still pumping 7i's out there at 150 with 23* of launch and 7700-8000 RPMs of spin. If I gave him a modern iron with the bigger sole and slightly traditional lofts (i200 for example, which we tried), his distance was actually shorter because the backspin increased, even with a lower spinning shaft!!

So I had to pull out the big guns. We needed something strong lofted, a lighter shaft (to get his swing speed up), and something that is still going to spin relatively low in the shaft department. He was also really big on soft feedback on good hits. So, the forged crossover irons, like the Srixon Z565, the Apex CF16, and the Cobra King Tec Forged immediately sprang to mind as something that will allow him to hit it straighter, still give him the most feel, and will also cut a lot of spin due to their stronger lofts and internal weight position. I also thought the C-Taper Lite would be an ideal shaft, but he ultimately settled on the Nippon Modus 105, as it felt smoother to him while providing him with very similar numbers.

The length of the club actually played no part in how far he hits the golf ball now. His Ping's were 1/2 inch over length, and we ordered the Callaway's at standard length, so that point is moot. Therefore, he is playing the same length golf club he has for 13 years, and will for the foreseeable future.

I think as a community we really need to lay off the "well this is why you're hitting a club so much farther because of x,y,z and old clubs don't have that" nonsense. Especially if you have no idea what were the reasons why 1 club worked better than did the others. Live in the past if you want to live in the past. All I know is I, and Modern Golf, got BOZI007 17 more yards over his old set, and he is back to hitting it like he did 13 years ago. He is also hitting the ball just as high, much straighter, and still holding a green just as well as before. I think that about sums it up. Stop crapping on people's parade's simply because you don't agree with something.

[Weirfan]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

As someone who fit and built clubs for close to 12 years I most certainly wasn't crapping and as you know from my many posts on the subject , I am a big supporter of a proper fitting and happy to see somebody pleased and get a good result from the process.
I simply made a comment in response to Andres post ..... that a 3* stronger loft combined with a 1/2 inch longer club ( which we didn't know was the same length as his former set but that we do know that some manufacturers have different lengths or it could have been the result of the fitting itself ) would account for a good difference in distance as it's roughly equivalent to one iron stronger , which for most people should translate to a 10-15 yard gap. Knowing now that there was not an additional 1/2 inch , NO, the 3* alone would not account for 17 yards gained but as Scott said depending on his SS would likely contribute to somewhere ~ 5-9 yards .

[smc66]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

As his fitter, I am going to chime in here.

Reading this, my take-away is that the following were improved:

• swing speed (due to lighter shaft)
• launch angle (due to shaft?)
• rpms
• smash factor?

Can you speak to what the before/after improvements were for each, and how each contributed to the net 17 yard gain?

[Phatchrisrules]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

sensitive aren't we? And who is disagreeing with anything ?
.

Hey, like father, like son . I was born into the *****liness hahaha. No hard feelings, I totally get what you're saying. I am beginning to wonder what effect loft actually has a golf club, if any? Obviously I know it is needed, but hear me out. Why was BOZI007 hitting an i200 7i with a PX 6.0, shorter than his s59 7i with a DGS shaft, when in the i200 he had a ~10 gram lighter shaft, and a degree and a half stronger loft? The only variable that seemed to change was his spin rate went up a little bit.

I am starting to believe that irons could be best fit like a driver, with a very high launch angle, with moderate to low spin, with a steeper descent angle (ala his Apex CF16 w/ Modus 105 combination that got him 17 yards extra) could be the key to keeping accuracy and green stopping power high, while just getting unheard of distances in an iron. I saw the same thing when I fit myself for irons. I had Ping Ie1's with ZZ65 (essentially DG SL s400), and hit my 6i 170. I went to a Mizuno 900 Tour with a C-Taper Lite stiff (same weight, just lower spinning), and at the same loft, I saw close to 10 yards more distance. Now, going stronger lofts, with a heavier shaft (120g in PX LZ) with a more forgiving head, and even more spin reduction I am seeing close to 186 yards consistently. The only difference? I dropped my spin rate from 5500 to about 4100, and kept my launch the same around 22.

I don't know, this is just me thinking out loud.

[Weirfan]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

Hey, like father, like son . I was born into the *****liness hahaha. No hard feelings, I totally get what you're saying. I am beginning to wonder what effect loft actually has a golf club, if any? Obviously I know it is needed, but hear me out. Why was BOZI007 hitting an i200 7i with a PX 6.0, shorter than his s59 7i with a DGS shaft, when in the i200 he had a ~10 gram lighter shaft, and a degree and a half stronger loft? The only variable that seemed to change was his spin rate went up a little bit.

I am starting to believe that irons could be best fit like a driver, with a very high launch angle, with moderate to low spin, with a steeper descent angle (ala his Apex CF16 w/ Modus 105 combination that got him 17 yards extra) could be the key to keeping accuracy and green stopping power high, while just getting unheard of distances in an iron. I saw the same thing when I fit myself for irons. I had Ping Ie1's with ZZ65 (essentially DG SL s400), and hit my 6i 170. I went to a Mizuno 900 Tour with a C-Taper Lite stiff (same weight, just lower spinning), and at the same loft, I saw close to 10 yards more distance. Now, going stronger lofts, with a heavier shaft (120g in PX LZ) with a more forgiving head, I am seeing close to 186 yards consistently. The only difference? I dropped my spin rate from 5500 to about 4100, and kept my launch the same around 22.

I don't know, this is just me thinking out loud.

Sorry you caught the first sentence, I edited it out but too late.

You know I'm a big fan of yours and enjoy reading what you contribute here. Keep up the great work, GT is lucky to have you.

[Phatchrisrules]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

Reading this, my take-away is that the following were improved:

• swing speed (due to lighter shaft)
• launch angle (due to shaft?)
• rpms
• smash factor?

Can you speak to what the before/after improvements were for each, and how each contributed to the net 17 yard gain?

I don't know what each parameter did exactly, but I can take it as a whole. Swing speed obviously jumped up...I can't remember exact numbers as this was close to 2 weeks ago, but I want to say 5mph? Launch angle actually stayed the same. His back spin did come down to the high 5000s, low 6000s, which I think is the key here. Smash factor, I am unsure of, as the GC2 uses an assumed smash factor.

I think, absolutely honestly, the biggest factor was spin rate. Obviously, a higher swing speed = more distance, no one will dispute that. But to see 17 yards is huge. See my previous post for a little bit more in depth thoughts on this, but I truly believe now that hitting an iron a mile in the air, with lowered spin rates, but still maintaining a steep enough descent angle to hold a green (42 degrees or steeper, IMO) is going to cause a huge spike in distance, while still really constraining dispersion and still being able to hold a green.

[Phatchrisrules]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

Sorry you caught the first sentence, I edited it out but too late.

You know I'm a big fan of yours and enjoy reading what you contribute here. Keep up the great work, GT is lucky to have you.

Me too, you've always been very informative on your posts and your passion is very evident. No more sensitivity or bickering! This board has become so hostile lately!

[Tintin]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

Stop crapping on people's parade's simply because you don't agree with something.

You may interpret it as crapping on people's parade, I view it as spreading the right information as you've written many times. I can't let it slide. Besides it's fun to read your replies
Compare apples with apples is what I am saying.
A 24* lofted club is going to generate less back spin than a 27* lofted club.
We all know that. For real comparisons to take place it should not be #5 of one set vs #5 from another set. Loft vs loft.

Here is a good example of what I am talking about:
http://www.golfwrx.com/378150/head-t...pex-pro-irons/

The Apex pro 4 iron's loft is 24 degrees. The Apex CF16' 4 irons's loft is 21.5 degrees. For that test to be meaningful they should have tested the 4 pro against the 5CF. 24 *vs 24*.

And lastly your claim about the ball holding the green puzzles me. How can you make that claim when it's an indoor fit?

[Slickstick78]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

After warming up with my PING S59 7 iron and getting a good selection of my best shots, I then tried the Cobra & Callaway. It was interesting to see that they were essentially identical in terms of the raw data - ball speed, smash factor, ball spin, etc, etc. In fact, the irons were only 1 yard difference in total distance and accuracy was superb. But the big thing was noticing that I had gained 17 yards in distance on the new irons compared to my PING's!! I was shocked!

Aren't the fitting carts loaded with 6 irons?

[rgk5]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

You may interpret it as crapping on people's parade, I view it as spreading the right information as you've written many times. I can't let it slide. Besides it's fun to read your replies
Compare apples with apples is what I am saying.
A 24* lofted club is going to generate less back spin than a 27* lofted club.
We all know that. For real comparisons to take place it should not be #5 of one set vs #5 from another set. Loft vs loft.

Here is a good example of what I am talking about:
http://www.golfwrx.com/378150/head-t...pex-pro-irons/

The Apex pro 4 iron's loft is 24 degrees. The Apex CF16' 4 irons's loft is 21.5 degrees. For that test to be meaningful they should have tested the 4 pro against the 5CF. 24 *vs 24*.

And lastly your claim about the ball holding the green puzzles me. How can you make that claim when it's an indoor fit?

Think of it this way. If I hit an iron 160 yds one time with a 32* angle of descent and the next time the same distance with a 40* angle of descent, given the same firmness of green, which shot will hold better? I'll take the steeper descent over a few hundred rpm of spin.

[Tintin]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

Think of it this way. If I hit an iron 160 yds one time with a 32* angle of descent and the next time the same distance with a 40* angle of descent, given the same firmness of green, which shot will hold better? I'll take the steeper descent over a few hundred rpm of spin.

Granted for the former . Probably good for us hackers.
Yet the pros shoot for the latter. What gives?

[Phatchrisrules]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

Granted for the former . Probably good for us hackers.
Yet the pros shoot for the latter. What gives?

I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing here. Your pros hit their irons incredibly high for the most part. Obviously there are some exceptions, but usually they hit moon balls. These shots have extremely steep descent angles that obviously hold greens very well for the most part. I would love to hit the ball like that with a low enough spin rate to generate the distance but with high enough RPMs that it still one or two hops and stops.

On the flip side, most LPGA players are low launch, low spin players. They do not hold greens very well and I think are more representative of the spin deficiency most amateur players suffer from.

[Phatchrisrules]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

Aren't the fitting carts loaded with 6 irons?

7s for everyone except Srixon and Mizuno. Easy enough to extrapolate what a six iron would do based on 7 iron data.

[rgk5]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

Granted for the former . Probably good for us hackers.
Yet the pros shoot for the latter. What gives?

If you go to the range at the Can. Open you will notice that the better strikers launch all their full shots through the same apex with the short irons naturally reaching that height much sooner. This is deliberate and illustrates what I mentioned in my earlier post.

Rory, Day and Woodland are prime examples.