Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

[TourIQ]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

2) I do see the point of some to buy the exact club working for you due to tolerances. But I guess I'm just not that picky.

Chris and Bob the GT experts:

What % of the buying public get fitted at GT for a driver and leave with the identical one they hit
vs. they place an order or take a new one with plastic wrap on the head and grip, or buy elsewhere?

[rgk5]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

I always recommend they take the one they hit. I would say 95% will follow my suggestion. I can't help the early adopters who walk in, point and say:

"Gimme that new TaylorMade!"

[DTGolfer]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

When you get a driver fitting at MG do you walk out with the identical club/shaft combo demo you hit the best,
or do they make it up later when you are gone (ie, you don't get the club you hit the best)?

You do not get the club/shaft combo you hit. The clubs/shafts have a universal fit adapter so you can try any club/shaft combo you desire or are recommended to hit. That being said, I don't think they'd be opposed to selling you the demo head/shaft if you were so inclined.

They've measured the loft/lie and headweight of the clubs I've had built, and set them up to the requested length, swingweight, grip. They can probably build you as close to apples/apples as is possible outside of a tour van.

[Lob wedge]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

Wouldn't spending 340$ on lessons be more productive if you want to hit longer and straighter?

I would agree with you in most cases but I watched my God Son go from 235 to 305yds in 90 minutes during a fitting. I watched it all.

[Lob wedge]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

Joe was a successful lawyer, but as he got older he was increasingly hampered by incredible headaches. When his career and love life started to suffer, he sought medical help. After being referred from one specialist to another, he finally came across an old country doctor who solved the problem. "The good news is I can cure your headaches... the bad news is that it will require castration." You have a very rare condition which causes your testicles to press up against the base of your spine and the pressure creates one hell of a headache. The only way to relieve the pressure is to remove the testicles." Joe was shocked and depressed. He wondered if he had anything to live for. He couldn't concentrate long enough to answer, but decided he had no choice but to go under the knife. When he left the hospital he was without a headache for the first time in 20 years, but he felt like he was missing an important part of himself. As he walked down the street, he realized that he felt like a different person. He could make a new beginning and live a new life. He saw a men's clothing store and thought, "that's what I need .. a new suit." He entered the shop and told the salesman, "I'd like a new suit." The elderly tailor eyed him briefly and said, "Let's see... size 42 long." Joe laughed, "That's right, how did you know?" "Been in business 60 years!" Joe tried on the suit. It fit perfectly. As Joe admired himself in the mirror, the salesman asked, "how about a new shirt?" Joe thought for a moment and then said "sure..." The salesman eyed Joe and said "let's see...34 sleeves and...16 and a half neck." Joe was surprised, "that's right, how did you know?" "Been in the business 60 years" Joe tried one the shirt, and it fit perfectly. As Joe adjusted the collar in the mirror, the salesman asked "how about some new shoes?" Joe was on a roll and said "sure!" The salesman eyed Joe's feet and said "Let's see... 10-1/2...E." Joe said astonished, "that's right, how did you know?" "Been in business 60 years!" Joe tried on the shoes and they fit perfectly. Joe walked comfortably around the shop and the salesman asked "how about some new underwear?" Joe thought for a second and said, "sure!" The salesman stepped back, eyed Joe's waist and said "Let's see... size 36." Joe laughed, "Ah ha! I got you I've worn a size 34 since I was 18 years old." "The salesman shook his head, " "you can't wear a size 34, it will press your testicles up against the base of your spine and give you one hell of a headache."

ripped from www.jokes4us.com

Gold!

[TourIQ]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

You do not get the club/shaft combo you hit. The clubs/shafts have a universal fit adapter so you can try any club/shaft combo you desire or are recommended to hit. That being said, I don't think they'd be opposed to selling you the demo head/shaft if you were so inclined.

They've measured the loft/lie and headweight of the clubs I've had built, and set them up to the requested length, swingweight, grip. They can probably build you as close to apples/apples as is possible outside of a tour van.

Good to know. We've had a driver/shaft combo from a Ping demo day that was explosive on distance (like 30+ yards) and straight as an arrow in the hands of my son. So we ordered 2 of the same from a Michigan retailer and they were digitally lofted and hand picked and assembled by PING WRX (their tour department). Like MG, it shouldn't get better than this. Neither driver made his play bag for more than a single range session or 9 holes. Why the used club bin is full of nearly new drivers.

So now we deploy a different strategy ... much cheaper I might add. I buy new high end 2 year old discontinued drivers off eBay like the Adams XTD Ti for $50 to $100 USD and it either works or it doesn't. Right now the whole family plays this model of driver in various lofts and R/L orientations.

The LH'ed XTD Ti's were reshafted from stock using a new and discontinued XX flex shaft I bought them for $25 USD each. The shafts were made in 2009, so nearly 10 years old, and it flat out perform. Not sure what a $600+ exotic shaft upgrade would gain him.

With spares, we now have 5 new 'high performance' drivers for $500 CAD and not 5 drivers for $5,000

I would agree with you in most cases but I watched my God Son go from 235 to 305yds in 90 minutes during a fitting. I watched it all.

Golden in the hands of your god son. Well played.

[TourIQ]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

I always recommend they take the one they hit. I would say 95% will follow my suggestion. I can't help the early adopters who walk in, point and say:

"Gimme that new TaylorMade!"

We had a TM only once. A prototype R540 right from the TM tour van and one hit by Mike Weir on the range.
It was a total dud, short and dispersion used the whole width of the range. Even when hit on the screws if was a flip of the coin if it would falter left or right, it had no consistency.
Never bought another TM product

[racmbs]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

Good to know. We've had a driver/shaft combo from a Ping demo day that was explosive on distance (like 30+ yards) and straight as an arrow in the hands of my son. So we ordered 2 of the same from a Michigan retailer and they were digitally lofted and hand picked and assembled by PING WRX (their tour department). Like MG, it shouldn't get better than this. Neither driver made his play bag for more than a single range session or 9 holes. Why the used club bin is full of nearly new drivers.

Did you ever consider that he was hitting it well during the testing and when the clubs were ordered and built by you, wasn't syncing up? Surely you can agree that even the best in the world have off-days--there is a reason why they carry multiple driver/fairway combos in the bag and use them during practice rounds. I can assure you the demo clubs and shafts are NO DIFFERENT than the ones you order from a retailer, if thats what you are implying. It isn't some conspiracy that OEM's partake in to suck you into buying their merchandise by allowing you to demo near-flawless product, only to turn around and sell you an inferior product. As smart a guy you come across Harry, I sometimes wonder if you are your own worst enemy.

[hogannut]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

IMO....a certified club fitter is the only way to go. I worked in the industry for almost 15 years in every capacity. I worked for 2 national distributors, numerous courses and facilities and retail for 2 years. IMO a local club fitter who works with quality components is the best value you can get. First of all you know you are getting a knowledgeable person fitting you. At GT and other retailers or even fitting centres it's hit and miss. If you get a good one you are fine and will probably get a set of clubs that are right for you. But if you get someone who doesn't know what they are doing or are only interested in the sale maybe not.

With a local club fitter (that is established and knowledgeable) you know you are getting a quality assessment in terms of what you need. The other thing is with component equipment they don't have big budget advertising and sponsorship's they have to pay. WHo do you think pays for that stuff? THe retail customer obviously. Also word of mouth is really the only thing component companies and the local business has to promote their business. They are much more concerned about customer satisfaction than big corporations. Finally, with a local fitter you are supporting a local business which is nice.

I will give you a prime example of why components are the way to go. I recently bought some new wood heads that I will assemble at some point. I bought a 3 wood and 5 wood. Everyone thinks that those heads should have 3-4 degrees of loft seperation, right? Well, it turned out they only had 1. Why, because one head was 1 degree strong and the other was 1 degree weak. I knew this because the actual lofts were measured and labeled. If you read most manufactures specs they will have tolerances of usually +/- 1 degree. That is for ANY manufacturer. But do you think the brand name guys are going to tell you that? How many times have you or your buddy had that where they hit there say 3 wood almost as far as their 5. Maybe it is the heads. Have they had the loft measured? At least with the heads I got I knew and was able to make the appropriate choices to figure out how to make it work for me.

THe reality of club fitting is it is all basically in the shaft. You have a couple of choices regarding heads. You have forged blades or forged cavities that have maximum feel but the least amount of forgiveness. Then you have some middle of the road softer stainless steel heads that give you decent feel but are more along the forgiveness factor in terms of their design, Ping is a great example of that. Then you have your game improvement heads that are designed for maximum forgiveness but you sacrifice feel. Regardless of what name is stamped on the head it is probably made in China and the only thing that differentiates one from the other is the manufacturers specs and tolerances. But the biggest challenge for the club fitter is the shaft. I'm sure the fitters on this forum will agree, and each year the shaft options get more and more complicated as the competition heats up within the different manufacturers. In a nutshell the 2 main aspects of shaft fitting is weight and torque. Flex is more or less irrelevant. When I was fitting at GT I would tell the customers that constantly. Don't worry about flex, worry about weight and torque. Also, worth noting, I always tried to keep my customers in steel as long as possible. Steel shafts are getting lighter and closer to graphite every year. 90 gram steel shafts used to be unheard of but not anymore. Steel will always be more consistent and less expensive than graphite. Until your club speed really slows down or you have a physical ailments stay with steel.

I am.....or should say WAS a die hard Hogan iron guy. I am still playing the last set of Apex Edge Pro's I bought when I was still working at Spalding. I have already bought my next set of heads and will assemble them in the next season or two. Those heads are components and my woods and hybrids have been components for almost a decade.

I will never buy another set of brand name equipment for the reasons I have just stated. Before you make a decision go and a local club builder who deals with high quality component heads. There were some on this forum, I'm sure they are still around, just ask the guys who are always on talking they will point you in the right direction. My 2 cents worth

[Phatchrisrules]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

IMO....a certified club fitter is the only way to go. I worked in the industry for almost 15 years in every capacity. I worked for 2 national distributors, numerous courses and facilities and retail for 2 years. IMO a local club fitter who works with quality components is the best value you can get. First of all you know you are getting a knowledgeable person fitting you. At GT and other retailers or even fitting centres it's hit and miss. If you get a good one you are fine and will probably get a set of clubs that are right for you. But if you get someone who doesn't know what they are doing or are only interested in the sale maybe not.

With a local club fitter (that is established and knowledgeable) you know you are getting a quality assessment in terms of what you need. The other thing is with component equipment they don't have big budget advertising and sponsorship's they have to pay. WHo do you think pays for that stuff? THe retail customer obviously. Also word of mouth is really the only thing component companies and the local business has to promote their business. They are much more concerned about customer satisfaction than big corporations. Finally, with a local fitter you are supporting a local business which is nice.

I will give you a prime example of why components are the way to go. I recently bought some new wood heads that I will assemble at some point. I bought a 3 wood and 5 wood. Everyone thinks that those heads should have 3-4 degrees of loft seperation, right? Well, it turned out they only had 1. Why, because one head was 1 degree strong and the other was 1 degree weak. I knew this because the actual lofts were measured and labeled. If you read most manufactures specs they will have tolerances of usually +/- 1 degree. That is for ANY manufacturer. But do you think the brand name guys are going to tell you that? How many times have you or your buddy had that where they hit there say 3 wood almost as far as their 5. Maybe it is the heads. Have they had the loft measured? At least with the heads I got I knew and was able to make the appropriate choices to figure out how to make it work for me.

THe reality of club fitting is it is all basically in the shaft. You have a couple of choices regarding heads. You have forged blades or forged cavities that have maximum feel but the least amount of forgiveness. Then you have some middle of the road softer stainless steel heads that give you decent feel but are more along the forgiveness factor in terms of their design, Ping is a great example of that. Then you have your game improvement heads that are designed for maximum forgiveness but you sacrifice feel. Regardless of what name is stamped on the head it is probably made in China and the only thing that differentiates one from the other is the manufacturers specs and tolerances. But the biggest challenge for the club fitter is the shaft. I'm sure the fitters on this forum will agree, and each year the shaft options get more and more complicated as the competition heats up within the different manufacturers. In a nutshell the 2 main aspects of shaft fitting is weight and torque. Flex is more or less irrelevant. When I was fitting at GT I would tell the customers that constantly. Don't worry about flex, worry about weight and torque. Also, worth noting, I always tried to keep my customers in steel as long as possible. Steel shafts are getting lighter and closer to graphite every year. 90 gram steel shafts used to be unheard of but not anymore. Steel will always be more consistent and less expensive than graphite. Until your club speed really slows down or you have a physical ailments stay with steel.

I am.....or should say WAS a die hard Hogan iron guy. I am still playing the last set of Apex Edge Pro's I bought when I was still working at Spalding. I have already bought my next set of heads and will assemble them in the next season or two. Those heads are components and my woods and hybrids have been components for almost a decade.

I will never buy another set of brand name equipment for the reasons I have just stated. Before you make a decision go and a local club builder who deals with high quality component heads. There were some on this forum, I'm sure they are still around, just ask the guys who are always on talking they will point you in the right direction. My 2 cents worth

Bold Point # 1 - Maybe Ping is more honest than most, but it's stated pretty plainly on their website that their tolerances are not exactly as shown. See the picture I attached, it is just a screen shot.

Bold Point #2 - I agree that graphite is more expensive, but that's about it. I think your comment about steel being more consistent is absolutely unfounded. First of all, graphite took over in woods because it WAS more consistent, not just because it was lighter. As you probably know, I've been fitting at Golf Town for 12 years now. Yes, most people purchase steel, but the reason is more to do with them being uninformed about the benefits of graphite. Just today for example, I hit the JPX 900 tour with a C-Taper Lite Stiff and compared it to a Recoil 95 F4 (stiff). The Recoil gave me higher launch, more spin, was straighter, and I hit it further. With these being a free upgrade in Mizuno, Callaway, Cobra, and Srixon, would someone not want these performance benefits for the same money? It seems like an obvious choice for someone who wants to improve. In addition, graphite has really hurt Matt Kuchar, Brandt Snedeker, Fred Couples, and Colin Montogomery . Since their livelihood depends on consistency, why would they purposely choose to play an inferior product, as you see it?

Bold Point #3 - Not to knock components as I have never actually played with one. But some are astronomically expensive, getting into the realm of a used OEM set. In that regard, why would you fork over $400-600 for a quality set of components that aren't worth their weight in scrap metal in trade-in value, over a set of RSi1's, Ping G10's, or Callaway X-Hots for equal or less money? Yes you can argue the fitting aspect, but let's say for arguments sake the person has been fit and knows they need a high launch, mid torque, steel shaft, with a head that is going to be forgiving. Since these are pretty generic specs that most average players would fit into, what is the benefit of these components over buying a gently used set from an OEM for cheaper?

[TourIQ]

Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

Did you ever consider that he was hitting it well during the testing and when the clubs were ordered and built by you, wasn't syncing up? Surely you can agree that even the best in the world have off-days--there is a reason why they carry multiple driver/fairway combos in the bag and use them during practice rounds. I can assure you the demo clubs and shafts are NO DIFFERENT than the ones you order from a retailer, if thats what you are implying. It isn't some conspiracy that OEM's partake in to suck you into buying their merchandise by allowing you to demo near-flawless product, only to turn around and sell you an inferior product. As smart a guy you come across Harry, I sometimes wonder if you are your own worst enemy.

Scott you don't help a player get to a + handicap with a course record '64', who played over 90% of his rounds on a boring 9-hole cow pasture of a home course, with an uncut range and golf balls void of dimples or not even washed, so virtually unhittable so he gave up range practice. Worst emeny, 'I don't think so', as we clearly did something different from the norm to stack the cards in his favor.

How many people do you know Scott who could develop a game 'below scratch' under the above conditions?

It doesn't matter how he was hitting it on different days, or what swing he brought to the course that day, as he had his gamer driver to compare with the test driver, to gauge performance side-by-side. I learned years ago when he was a junior, not to question Duane's (FB's) innate ability to evaluate a test club quickly, many times only 1 ball was needed, whether it was a putter or a driver. Once he rolled a 2nd putt just to please me, and once he refused to hit a 2nd ball with the driver and just said 'sell it'. A couple years ago while in sandals, at GT he found a driver that was 21 to 31 yards longer (can't remember the exact #) than the others, but the head was all beat up with idiot marks all over the crown, so he didn't buy it, he just knew that this club was significantly longer and we would find another one. He knew at impact it had a hotter face, he didn't even need to look-up to see the #'s to know it was longer by a wide margin. As a feel player, he knew the performance margin/gain at impact.

Scott do I think there is a conspiracy? No they are not that smart. When I find one high-dollar OEM off-the-shelf iron set in spec., then I will tip my hat, but not before. I once measured the set of an Ausie tour player from the CANTour. Build in his home country by the top Name Brand tour department, no fewer than 70% of the final inspection data was either grossly out of specification or at the wrong operating level, like a shaft softer than a Senior flex and the guy needs XX-flex in his set. Head wt., flex, swt., loft and lie all over the place, it was pretty sad and he was trying to earn a pay check each week.

Do I think some OEM's might jack up the COR (easy to do) on a demo driver to sell more product, no different than jacked Sims or LM deployed by retail outlets? I am sure it has crossed more than one marketing/sales oriented mind. Is there proof of this practice, absolutely not. I tend to think we don't know much about drivers fitting, build and performance. I've been consistent in maintaining on this forum for years, that the driver is the hardest club in the bag to fit and find, the rest are easy by comparison. For the experienced golfers, the ones in the know, why do they proclaim, if you get great #'s with a particular driver then buy that one, don't place an order for the same, as it won't give the same results. Personally I believe it has to do with manufacturing tolerances with the head and shaft, and the two-factor interaction between the two major components of the club.

BWoB, I was the Director of Quality for 10 auto plants in NA. Quality in the golf industry is close to non-existent. Many sets are cut and glue from across the pond. If Quality did exist, then I would have measured 1 set of Name Brand premium cost irons that were 100% in specification, not to my spec's, but in many cases to their own spec's. Here lies the problem, I suspect the face thickness capability which influences COR (trampoline effect) is not very capable statistically speaking, after all not every head is measured with the exception of the Adams XTD Ti driver. So distance can vary head to head, face contact can vary by virtue of spine alignment, flex can be off, etc. All the variables add together to create % Error before the club hits its 1st golf ball.

OEM don't need to sell based on Quality with product in specification, since golfers generally buy and never have their new set measured. Weirfan offered some great advice, have it checked before you leave the retailer.

Scott the 'worst enemy' is common sense wisdom based on personal paradigms ... the person in the mirror.

[TourIQ]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

The reality of club fitting is it is all basically in the shaft.
My 2 cents worth

Sorry hogannut I have to disagree, as I offer my nickel.

#1 is the cubhead / #2 and #3 is the shaft + the two-factor interaction.
Set make-up is super critical too, getting the right components to start with.

My other nickel would suggest the club build is more critical than the club fitting.

Bold Point # 1 - Maybe Ping is more honest than most ...

Bold Point #2 - I agree that graphite is more expensive, but that's about it. I think your comment about steel being more consistent is absolutely unfounded. First of all, graphite took over in woods because it WAS more consistent, not just because it was lighter.

Bold Point #3 - In that regard, why would you fork over $400-600 for a quality set of components that aren't worth their weight in scrap metal in trade-in value, over a set of ... for equal or less money? Since these are pretty generic specs that most average players would fit into, what is the benefit of these components over buying a gently used set from an OEM for cheaper?

Bold Point #1 - I have found Ping cares more about Quality than all the rest combined.

Bold Point #2 - Chris I do not think this claim is entirely correct. Graphite took over in woods, not because of consistency (shot dispersion), but because graphite was lighter than steel, which increased swing speed, leading to greater distance. I'm with hogannut on steel shafts for irons and wedges for most.

Bold Point #3 - everything is getting too expensive, but I favor name brand new discontinued or gently used to get a set of heads over components.

When you get a quality set build as Dan and some of the other sponsors are capable of building, then the resale value is a small consideration,
since a well fit and build set will serve you well for 10+ years. When the fit and build is off-the-mark, then the tendency is to replace often.

[Smittyman]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

When you get a quality set build as Dan and some of the other sponsors are capable of building, then the resale value is a small consideration,
since a well fit and build set will serve you well for 10+ years. When the fit and build is off-the-mark, then the tendency is to replace often.

+1.

If one of your considerations in buying clubs is the resale value, then haven't you already conceded that you might be making a bad choice? You're tacitly admitting that you're still on the merry-go-round.

I would look at a custom build to 1) give me a chance to maximize my (limited) ability and 2) be the last clubs I buy for many years. Achieving 1 would definitely lead to 2. If they are 'scrap metal' after ten years, they don't owe me anything.

[Pin Seeker]

Re: Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

What does GT actually offer for $40

Drivers and irons

[TourIQ]

Modern Golf vs Golf Town fitting - my thoughts

Surely you can agree that even the best in the world have off-days--there is a reason why they carry multiple driver/fairway combos in the bag and use them during practice rounds.

If the professionals understood the Concept of Variation, then they would realize the practice of using different clubs during a practice round is merely tampering and diminishes confidence, ... making things worse.

The time and place to test pilot new clubs or major alternations is not a day or two before the Thursday round.