Club Fitting

[LowPost42]

Re: Club Fitting

The Fitting you speak of, the player was wanting more accuracy, that was the basis of that fit. Things may have been different if distance was the priority at the time.

The player did require a short TLT Series as he is not very tall, with I believe a 31 inch WTF. He demo'ed clubs and was very happy with the feel of the Series we choose. His was a retrofit and retrofits have some built in inherantces that cannot be solved without a reshaft. Feedback was that yes there was some lost distance, but I was not made aware of any reason to re-evaluate. I believe extra wedges were worked on during a later date and was not made to understand that there was a problem.

I have asked for these clubs back on several occations here on the forum, because I stand behind my work. Chances are the heads are now at their limit, so to go to a longers Series will result in a greater amount of toe up and shot pattern will be affected. This is a decision that is made between myself and my player. If this was a new build things like flex, total weight and swing weight could have been controlled and may have reduced the thin shots. But of course this would have cost more. Retrofits are in most cases a budget repair and will have far more limitations than a new build.

I have no problem with anyone being critical of my System as this is how I continue to become better at what I do. This player was a tough fit due to his stature and I am disappointed that the end result was not satisfactory, but if I get the opportunity I will do everything I can to win this player over.

With Respect,

There's the Dan I know.

I had no idea it was a stock-mod. The toughest of any job to see massive improvement from (and I personally hated the stock-mod I tried).

I can see how that left a bad taste in the players mouth. Then again, paying just for (essentially) tweaking a stock set is akin to eating the Filet o' Fish @ McD's. Pretty disappointing if you were expecting Red Lobster.

[Leftygolfer30]

Re: Club Fitting

There's the Dan I know.

I had no idea it was a stock-mod. The toughest of any job to see massive improvement from (and I personally hated the stock-mod I tried).

I can see how that left a bad taste in the players mouth. Then again, paying just for (essentially) tweaking a stock set is akin to eating the Filet o' Fish @ McD's. Pretty disappointing if you were expecting Red Lobster.

Then why even do stock mods?

If using stock clubs, as you say, doesn't work well for TLT, why do it?

[Kona Golf]

Re: Club Fitting

Then why even do stock mods?

If using stock clubs, as you say, doesn't work well for TLT, why do it?

A stock mod can work, but it depends on the equipment / player. In most cases heads have to be bent to proper lie and many of the heads will only bend a couple of degrees which limits some of the irons, usually the longer irons which are generally the harder to hit. In the case of a forged iron or soft stainless, most heads can be bent to accommodate without issue.

You really can not tell until you get them on the bench.

The lengths can still be modified to match the lie angle of the club, but it really takes away from the uniformity of the overall set.

I think that the important thing is communicating the issues back to the fitter / builder so that the issue can be addressed, it may be equipment, it may be swing.

Was this person "topping" the ball before the adjustment? It would seem that if he is consistently "topping" the ball then TLT has partially worked in the fact that he is doing it with every club. It may be that the set up changed and he needs a longer series, or he may be consistently "coming up out of it" during the swing.

Regardless, communication is the answer.

[LowPost42]

Re: Club Fitting

Then why even do stock mods?

If using stock clubs, as you say, doesn't work well for TLT, why do it?

I personally won't - I didn't like how the clubs ended up when I experimented with it. That's not to say that it hasn't been done successfully - if a high capper struggling with consistency and no real sense of feel comes along, I think getting their clubs to the right lengths for their setup and swing helps. But simply lopping off (and/or extending) clubs and bending lie angles is just a surface fit.

Another complicating factor was how "matched" was the set before it came in for length and lie adjustment? If it was previously matched for heft and/or frequency and you're not getting that done, then it's going to feel bad at the end of the day. If it was just a stock set, only 3 of the clubs really fit your posture anyway - so IMO you lose nothing by going with a basic length and lie adjustment here.

I guess, to use a worn out analogy, it's the difference between bringing in your suit that you bought off the rack to get hemmed, versus paying for a tailored suit. Alterations are inherently bound by what you offer to work with; tailoring is only limited by what you're willing to spend. I get that not everybody can afford a tailored suit - so please don't be upset when all you pay for is hemming.

[dekker]

Re: Club Fitting

Lp42, the suit analogy fits perfectly.
Allow me.
guy takes his suit to the tailor.
Listen, he says. I got this suit made originally but I've lost a lot of weight since and I can't afford a new one. Can you help me on the cheap?
Tailor says, sleeves are too long, the jacket is too wide in the shoulders and the pants are going to fall off. Here's what I can do. I'm going to tell you how to wear the suit as is. Hold both elbows and forearms against the chest. now everybody can see a bit of the shirtsleeves and the tucked elbows bring in the shoulders of the jacket. Keep the thighs and knees close together so the pants don't fall off and that should do it. The guy does like he was told and shuffles out the door down the street. He passes a couple of guys who stare at him. Poor cripple says the one guy, you see how he walks?
I wasn't looking at that, says the other . Did you see his suit? It fits perfectly.

[P25]

Re: Club Fitting

^^Yet the tailor still charged full pop. How would you feel?

[TourIQ]

Re: Club Fitting

^^Yet the tailor still charged full pop. How would you feel?

Most builders never charge full pop for quarter of a job and if they did then apologies to the buyer for being so stupid.

Read other posts over the last year. Many do not want the clubmaker to make even $2 for installing a grip. No wonder the big box retailer won't take the time to remove excess build up tape and this is acceptable, but if a clubmaker pulled the same time saving trick then s\he is publically cruisified.

The top builders will have $20K or more invested in their shops, not to mention what their knowledge is worth, and at the end of the day many expect him\her to work for minimum wage or less.

Many times customers get what they paid for and more. If spelling mistakes, the screen is pretty tiny on my BB.

[LowPost42]

Re: Club Fitting

^^Yet the tailor still charged full pop. How would you feel?

If I was charged for a new build and received anything less, I'd be pissed.

Like any other shop, there's an hourly rate for labour. Whether it's a regrip, rebuild, fitting or new build, there's an hourly rate for the time it takes to do these things. Some places will discount the rate, some will waive it completely if hard goods are purchased, some places feel their time and knowledge is worth something and don't discount anything.

It's no different than when I take my car to the garage or my sled to the shop - the shop rate is the shop rate, whether I have them rebuild the motor or simply change the plugs - I still pay the labour rate.

I would be very, very surprised to find out that Dan charged you for a full build and only delivered a retrofit.

[TLT Dan]

Re: Club Fitting

Then why even do stock mods?

If using stock clubs, as you say, doesn't work well for TLT, why do it?

My retrofit success rate is very high, with many / many satisfied customers. It's when you have to do an extreme length / lie change that things can become more difficult. When the stock short irons are still too long, then the long irons are way too long (and in most cases - way too upright). This is a case where I was confident I could help, but would be limited to what I could do.

This type of case involved the extreme changes, and the player would be playing a set of clubs that were way different from what they were originally. There must be a swing plane correction, and yes it seems like the mutual decision between my customer and I (the player is very involved in the chosen TLT Series), did result in a set that now seems to be too short.

The retrofit fee was certainly not that of a new set. I did what we agreed upon. My fees are based on the amount of work required, as in - the more work I do the greater the cost. This player elected not to have weight added back to the club, to bring the swing weight back in line, therefore the flex was also affected. With this extreme case the shafts would have stiffened and the swing weight dropped. Unfortunately this resulted in a less than satisfying experience. This is where the phone call should have came in, letting me know of the players concerns.

I will claim again, that a TLT Retrofit will help increase consistency and accuracy, even in its simplest form. A full out TLT retrofit can involve shaft changes as well, which will move the retrofit level very close to a new build, but you are certainly in a higher price range.

When the results are not what they should be, all I ask for is the chance to make it right. I am confident that I made this player aware of what happens to their clubs when extreme changes are made. We agreed on what my services would entail, and the work was done - as agreed.

[LowPost42]

Re: Club Fitting

I have never come across a club club fitter that charges by the hour. Can you give an example? Usually set pricing for work done.

Good, fast club fitters would have to post something like $60 to $100 an hour plus and that ain't good for business IMO.

My bad. Allow me to rephrase. Any independent contractor will use an hourly rate is a stock calculation in job pricing. You figure out your cost of goods, factor in your profit margin, and how much you want to pay yourself (the hourly rate). Then you figure out how long the job will take and price accordingly.

Now as for what's good or bad for business as far as an hourly rate is concerned - I know plenty of contractors who charge in those numbers who are good and fast. Plumbers, electricians, mechanics (both auto and small engine). If you want the work done, you pay the price. If you don't, you shop it around. Before folks go crazy, I realise there's a difference between spending money on your recreation and a housing or travel expense, but then again, I've always agreed with the sign I saw hanging in a buddy's garage: "We do three types of job here: Good, fast, and cheap. You can have any two."

[Kona Golf]

Re: Club Fitting

Wouldn't a full retro cost more then from scratch labour wise? Having to remove all the shafts and clean the hosels etc....? New stuff would be easier to work with correct?

Retro would actually be more work if you were replacing the shafts.

[Leftygolfer30]

Re: Club Fitting

Are you out of work or something? Too much times on your hands.

Go away troll.

[TLT Dan]

Re: Club Fitting

Wouldn't a full retro cost more then from scratch labour wise? Having to remove all the shafts and clean the hosels etc....? New stuff would be easier to work with correct?

A full out retrofit is still a little cheaper than that of a full out new build.
I still consider this as a repair as you are not going home with a NEW set of golf clubs and their value is not at the same level as new.

New builds have added bonuses as time is spent selecting and sorting heads. If I need a lighter set I can often hand pick these, whereas the headweights are preset on a used set limiting what can be done. This helps me fine tune things with a new set adding value as I have more options.

Full Retrofits still have limits, as I have to work with a head that maybe is way off in lie, loft or even head weight, and cannot be corrected to where the Fit puts it. As a new set, I would have chosen heads that match the players needs. I am always limited by the head on a retro. The player has assumed that this head is best for them where a new head (that is chosen for a reason) may improve their shot and game. The head still produces resultant conditions that I may have been able to control on a new build.

I know when guys come to me for retrofits that budget is often the reason. I have too keep pricing from getting too high for what is still a repair.

Still comes down to new is new, and there is a value to this. A repair is still a repair and is priced accordingly.