Long game is more important than short game

[abz-pete]

Re: Long game is more important than short game

In this thread, putting and short game are not the same. Long/short game are over/under 100 yards and putting is, well, putting. So in that context, is it still all about the short game?

I agree that at pro or elite amateur level, the long game is more important. However at the bogey golfer level (which is more relevant to TGN) I'd still say short game. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen a player hit two reasonable shots to within 50 yards of the green and walk off with double bogey or worse.

[exile]

Re: Long game is more important than short game

check out puttingzone.com for geoff magnum's info on what Pelz published in the putting bible. the one part that stuck out for me was the differences in how far past the hole you should hit the putt based on the grass type.

I've had the opportunity to spend some time at Pelz schools (though not with the man himself) as well as some clinic and one-on-one time with Geoff Magnum. Geoff has a wealth of knowledge, but both in person and online, he seems to be more interested in debunking more 'successful' teachers rather than strictly sharing his insights, IMO I found this to be a big turnoff. It isn't helped by the fact that he's a bit....eccentric, I think a lot of his stuff would be better received by the masses/tour players if it was delivered differently..

As for Pelz, he really does not place nearly as much emphasis on putting as he does wedges, simply because proximity to hole (the golden 8' he calls it) gets best ROI on short game improvement.. In 24 hours of instruction we only spent about 2-3 hours on putting, and moreover really almost no time was spent on mechanics, it was mostly on practicing putting with the right feedback (which some could argue means 'how to sell his gizmos' - though at a 3day school you get them all for free)..

In any case I would think Pelz would probably readily admit his Forte is not instructing putting, but simply giving you ways to accurately measure your putting relative to optimal values.

I asked some of the same questions that nick did at Pelz, I'll share the answers I was given:

first off, i don't want to roll it past the hole, and second why would grass type dictate the capture size of the hole?

2 things:
a) Pelz data isn't for optimum capture size, it's for optimum putts made.. The reason his data is 'firmer' than ideal capture is because he was also factoring in imperfections in the green surface during the last 12 inches of the putt or so. It was not 17" is ideal for capture size, it was 17" still gives you a big enough capture size while still allowing the ball to hold it's line well enough that you make more putts than at any other speed.

As for why you want a "rolls past the hole number", When practicing your distance control outside 8ft, the majority of your putts will miss the hole, and your brain is really bad at measuring the balls RPM's. So the question is, on a miss, how do you know you had an ideal capture speed? You need to look at rollout to figure out if your arrival speed was optimal.


now..the big one..17" ... Pelz will happily tell you (and I think he does in either short game or putting bible) that this value is "absolutely correct" for about 0% of greens.. it's an average of a whole bunch of conditions (uphill, downhill, tour greens, country club greens, muni greens, bumpy greens, pure greens, bermuda, bent, poa early, poa late in the day) that got boiled down to one number so that your average amateur can have one target distance and not have to practice 8 different numbers..

ie: he doesn't tell Phil at augusta to leave his downhill putts at 17", but if an amateur is averaging 17", he's gonna be in the 95th + percentile of distance control for amateurs across *all* putting surfaces.

gravity pulls the ball in/down, so why would grass have an affect? the ball speed around the lip is the only thing that matters, IMO.

Per above, Pelz would say he's not disagreeing with you, he's just trying to give you a way to visualize what that lip speed is - What's your ideal method to measure whether your speed was good, if you're not looking at rollout?

[mit006]

Re: Long game is more important than short game

Interesting stats:

"Percentage of holes birdied by:"
2013 PGA Tour Pros: 19.4%
Handicap 0-9: 5.4%
Handicap 10-19: 2.5%
Handicap 20+: 1.2%

(Source: http://www.pgatour.com/content/pgato...e-birdies.html)

[tigerphan]

Re: Long game is more important than short game

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/sean-foley-charlie-rose-10-28-UhPh6GfPTt~WvTlFQVYpLA.html

Sean Foley talks about the 175-250 rule in this video. He agrees ball striking is the only one thing that makes the difference. Especially from 175-250.

[The Troll]

Re: Long game is more important than short game

My round Thursday was a good example of the value of the long game.

Played a wet course with three 440 yard Par 4's all into the wind. On the three holes I put a 225 yard and two 205 yard shots on the green. Three two putts later I gained at least 1 1/2 on the guys in my group....each with a vaunted short game.

Of course I gave some back to my buddy's hole in one.

[Angelily]

Re: Long game is more important than short game

Yeah this is actually where the criticism for the title comes from.

I've seen lots of great short game players win with crumby long games, but I've never seen a single instance of a great long game player win with a crumby short game.

[PingGolfer]

Re: Long game is more important than short game

Foley mentions that with the long courses and shorter rough ... Long > Short.

He says his stats guy has a book that proves Long > Short.

http://www.charlierose.com/watch/60289252

[corchard]

Re: Long game is more important than short game

It's really hard to make par or even bogey when you are hitting 5 and not on the green yet.

[Fredk]

Re: Long game is more important than short game

It's really hard to make par or even bogey when you are hitting 5 and not on the green yet.

I've certainly never managed to.

Is there a pro out there with a 'crumby' short game?

[dlam]

Re: Long game is more important than short game

I've certainly never managed to.

Is there a pro out there with a 'crumby' short game?

No there isn't. This study inference apply to pros with + handicaps
The 3 shot difference between a +10 to a +7 seems to be 2 shots long game and 1 shot short game
The average golfer should not neglect the short game practice unless you can get up and down at least 50% from inside 30 yards from any type of lie

Also it seems to much is made about practice long game. The tour pros are all capable of hitting pin high from 250 yards away. Perhaps it's a matter of course management that contributed to ball striking stat. Knowing when not to go for a risky shot with OB on one side of fairway and when not to go for a sunker pin when there is a water hazard nearby How can you improve that on a driving range?

[Gridiron]

Re: Long game is more important than short game

No there isn't. This study inference apply to pros with + handicaps
The 3 shot difference between a +10 to a +7 seems to be 2 shots long game and 1 shot short game
The average golfer should not neglect the short game practice unless you can get up and down at least 50% from inside 30 yards from any type of lie

Also it seems to much is made about practice long game. The tour pros are all capable of hitting pin high from 250 yards away. Perhaps it's a matter of course management that contributed to ball striking stat. Knowing when not to go for a risky shot with OB on one side of fairway and when not to go for a sunker pin when there is a water hazard nearby How can you improve that on a driving range?

Really? Wow. Then your short game would be just a good as a very good tour pro. Is that really a realistic goal?

[NickStarchuk]

Re: Long game is more important than short game

Mark Broadie at Top100 Golf Teachers Summit in Orlando yesterday -

"If you can't putt, you can't win. If you can't drive, you can't play."

[3whack]

Re: Long game is more important than short game

Mark Broadie at Top100 Golf Teachers Summit in Orlando yesterday -

"If you can't putt, you can't win. If you can't drive, you can't play."

That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it.

[Brian Williams]

Re: Long game is more important than short game

Long game

If you're 101-200 yards out would you rather believe that you can be on the green or believe your short game can save you

Believe that my short game will save me.

That belief will free me up to swing freely from 101-200 yards. if I hit a poor shot I will be confident I can save par. If I hit a good shot I will be confident I will sink my birdie putt.

[corchard]

Re: Long game is more important than short game

Mark Broadie at Top100 Golf Teachers Summit in Orlando yesterday -

"If you can't putt, you can't win. If you can't drive, you can't play."

I think that just became my new mantra.

Repeat all winter, "If you can't drive, you can't play..."