CGTF vs. CPGA

[20Yr Golfer]

Re: CGTF vs. CPGA

Boy Winthorpe, you must be one of those guys who reads the labels of every jar in the supermarket and it takes you 3 hours to do groceries! HAHAHAHA. That is great news. I would love to possibly find an instructor or someplace close to my place, ( Erin Mills and Burnhamthorpe)

Anyway I hope that your instructor can communicate and build rapport with many a person, cuz like you said it doesn't really matter about the certification if they have done their homework like you have!

Good luck

FORE

[torresj]

Re: CGTF vs. CPGA

I would like to know if anyone out there has gone through the program who can talk a bit about the level of difficulty of the written rules test. Are the questions basic or advance? How many questions? Did you find the test difficult? any help on the type of questions asked etc.

Any light that could be shed on this would be most appreciated.

Thanks!!!

[Golftime]

Re: CGTF vs. CPGA

I would like to know if anyone out there has gone through the program who can talk a bit about the level of difficulty of the written rules test. Are the questions basic or advance? How many questions? Did you find the test difficult? any help on the type of questions asked etc.

Any light that could be shed on this would be most appreciated.

Thanks!!!

Which organization's test are you referring to?

[torresj]

Re: CGTF vs. CPGA

Ops! Sorry for the confusion - CGTF certification written rules test.

Thanks!!!

[hogannut]

Re: CGTF vs. CPGA

I took my certificate in 1997, so have a vague memory of the test. Couldn't have been to tough....I passed!!

You can obviously read the previous pages for peoples overall thoughts, but I felt I got my money's worth from the course. What I like about the CGTF is they don't give you any false promises, they pretty much say from day 1 that this course gives you a starting point, and from there it is up to the individual on how serious they want to take it.

[Golftime]

Re: CGTF vs. CPGA

Ops! Sorry for the confusion - CGTF certification written rules test.

Thanks!!!

As I recall there were about 40 questions. Some questions were easy and some were difficult. Use of a rule book was allowed and even encouraged. Part of the exercise I think was to make sure that you could find information when you needed it. A lot of the questions had been covered in the rules session as well so things should have been fresh in our minds.
If you have a basic understanding of the rules and paid attention then it wasn't too onerous.
The Playing ability test and the teaching test were far more difficult. It is one thing to have an understanding of fundamentals but explaining to an experienced teacher how you would deal with certain problems is quite another challenge.

[101623]

Re: CGTF vs. CPGA

Let's talk about the inaccuracies of this post......

I worked at a golf course in 1994 where the CPGA head pro had moved to Canada and had to take the entire 5 year program again after being a class A pro in Scotland.

The reality of the CPGA program is their members are taught all aspects of the golf business, with teaching being a part of the overall curriculum. By no means am I saying the CGTF program on its own will produce the next Butch Harmom, but to say the CPGA program is a 5 year program about how to teach is also not correct.

If I chose I could pay my back dues and be an up to date CGTF instructor again, I just don't want to teach anymore.

There are MANY high quality teachers with no affiliation to either sanction, and are better than lots of CGTF and/or CPGA.

Also the majority of CPGA guys who do most of the teaching at any given golf are NOT class A pro's, they are apprentices going through the program, and many of them can't break 80. VERY FEW class A pro's are the main teacher at the particular golf course as they are to busy running their businesses.

As for CPGA guys teaching playing pro's I will say that there is a better than 50/50 chance those guys have been teaching those players who are now pro since they were kids probably playing out of their club.

I don't know for sure, but what are the credentials for the top teachers in the world like Butch, Haney for example. Are they USGA club pro's? I don't think so!

First off the pro you speak of was from Scotland and I stated as a CPGA Class A Pro you now do not have to go through the whole course coming from Canada to another country. Maybe back in 94 you may have had to do so but not now. Trust me I know many fellow pros who work in China and Europe.

Also all the top Pro's such as Haney and Harmon are fellow PGA members, in case you didn't know CPGA is the Canadian division of the PGA.

One more thing, no one said the CPGA requires 5 years education on how to teach. Were the hell did you get that from.

[no analogies]

Re: CGTF vs. CPGA

First let's realize that analogies are stupid. Golf is golf and cars are cars.. please stop the analogies which just try to generalize. I am not a member of either organization and I have played golf all my life and play to a 4 handicap. The truth (in my opinion) is that I have seen many people ruin there games with instruction in general. I mean ruin completely. The other thing to remember is that Moe Norman dropped out of school and would not be able to be a C.P.G.A. professional as to the fact that he would need a high school diploma or equivalency. Could you imagine some C.P.G.A. guy telling MOE NORMAN that he isn't qualified to teach? The guy might be able to make the point that he couldn't market the game and sell balls and shirts in a pro shop while his game got worse, remember that many C.P.G.A members say that it stands for "can't play golf anymore". It is funny that many people (Natural Golf as an example) have tried to teach what they say is Moes' swing but this is bull because I learned alot from Moe Norman in videos showing Moe hit balls and talking about how to do it; not from natural golf that I found adressed ball striking differently. If you just listened to Moe it was way simpler. Stewart Appleby also did not finish high school and I would listen to him or Moe Norman way over any C.P.G.A. instuctor any day, who wouldn't. Harvey Penick ( Maybe the greatest instructor of all time) didn't believe in using video. Harvey felt that showing the person their swing could hurt them. " I don't care if the student looks like Sam Snead, just as long as they think they look like sam snead". My point is that most of the best golfers of all time were self taught and as Ben Hogan said when asked for the secret he replied by saying " It's in the dirt, go dig it up". This isn't to say that these players didn't get help along the way here or there but the pretty much figured it out for themselves and besides Peter Kostis recently said that he likes homemade golf swings more because those players know how to fix there own swings. Besides, if a certified instructor got a hold of Jim Furyk you probably wouldn't know his name today( he was told he would never go anywhere by more than one golf instructor... true!!!). If you can teach you can teach, period. Marketing may require schooling.. nuff said. I have also left myself as a duffer on my profile because I think that I have no reason to advertise myself.

[Mule56]

Re: CGTF vs. CPGA

I have also left myself as a duffer on my profile because I think that I have no reason to advertise myself.

Your a duffer because it is system generated by the number of posts you have made. You have now had your first lesson about something you didn't know.

Mule56 TGN Moderator

[admangolf]

Re: CGTF vs. CPGA

[QUOTE=kearstyn1;242773]

CGTF vs CPGA

The first thing I love about this debate is James G's comment about telling a LEVEL IV CSIA that they dont know how to teach skiing. (Remember they carry poles and have excellent eye to hand coordination so watch it)

Essentially the training program that CGTF offers is not unlike the training and certification programs offered by the CSIA (Canadian Ski Instructors Assoc) and CASI (Canadian Assoc of Snowboard Instructors). Of Which I have been a member of both for over 22 years. Both of whom, its worth noting, are held in the HIGHEST regard and respect amongst the global community of snow pros @ (ISIA) International Ski Instructors Assoction * a meeting which takes place every 4 years with demonstrations and presentations on teaching methods around the world*

The annual $250 dues of CGTF are similar to that of these ski/snowboard associations (as well as the course fees) and the training similar Level 1 CASI/CSIA is 3 to 4 days - Level 2 CGTF is 3 days. Level 2 CSIA/CASI is 5 days Level 3 CGTF is 5 days. Level 3 - 4 CSIA/CASI is 7 days or more and Level 4 CGTF is equally long. You can learn a TON of information in these sessions from both associations about the fundamentals of teaching. Learning Styles, Roles of an Instructor, Leadership, even mental physical and dietary management etc. To discount the information on a CGTF course by a CPGA member is really an insult to CSIA and CASI members (WHO ARE THE BEST TEACHERS IN THE WORLD ON SNOW!!!) as well as active CGTF members.

The truth (as I see it) between CPGA and CGTF is...

1. Each associations members clearly has their OWN views (both of which are BIAS in favor of their OWN affiliation - I am no different)

2. CPGA is trainning for a career in the golf industry from club making, marketing, facility management, pro shop sales, staff training, AND teaching.

CGTF is teaching...period. I would venture to argue that a majority of CGTF members (myself included) are focused on teaching the fundamentals of golf to begginner to intermediate level players. Overall introducing people to the game, creating a more enjoyable experience and learning a life-long love for golf... seriously are we going to argue about the positive side of this for EVERYONE involved in this forum? Aside from Level 4 Master teachers who are (in my opinion) qualified to teach at an advanced, expert and even pedagogical level!

3. The amount you pay IS relative to what you receive. This is a point at both ends. If I pay THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS in membership dues to the CPGA (in money AND time) there is a likelyhood of extensive experience and credibility, which in-turn the student PAYS more for. Its bad enough that this game costs so much to play and own equipment for most beginners simply cant afford PGA lesson costs and when some of the PGA guys out there simply emit this "mighter than thou" persona it turns some students off (see point 4 below). The student already KNOWS your better than they are, thats why they signed up for lessons with you in the first place! You know what I believe is the very best evidence of really good teaching skills??? When you can teach a student to rise to your level or surpass it!

4. Others have pointed out in this thread that there are GOOD and BAD teachers. Nuff said, regardles of affiliation and this is a very important and often overlooked point in the debate.

I have been teaching snowboarding professionally for 22 years now (Level 3 CASI, Level 2 CSIA, Level 1 CSF) and Im a pretty darned good teacher. I have been golfing for over 25 years and thought I would try my hand at teaching that as well. When I investigated both options, CPGA isnt something that interested me on a few points COST, TIME (and treatment - slave labour and being treated poorly by higher ranking CPGA guys is something I have witnessed first hand working 3 years in the golf industry *I refer to point #4 above) and mainly the PAT. My current RCGA handicap is 11 so I'm not the best PLAYER in the world, but with my past teaching experience I can communicate to students very well AND have a strong understanding of the material and information that has to be conveighed. Remember the old joke "those who CAN do and those who CANT teach". Well turns out thats me when it comes to golf lol. Heck I failed the CGTF PAT by 6 strokes when I first attempted it, I went into that course knowing it was going to be a challenge, but I did gain a ton of information during the 5 day course and those of you who are discrediting the CGTF, walk a mile in their shoes first, if you DIDNT attend the course you have NO RIGHT to say whether it is or is not benificial, you WERENT THERE!

The funny closing point is my game wasnt always at an 11 hdcp, I was WORSE and you know who trained me to get to that number? A Class "A" PGA instructor who is ALSO a CGTF member. I respect him very much as a teacher and golf pro and his take on it is, both are benificial in their own right, both have good information and BOTH are worth their merit to a certain degree. Want to be a true professional? Take both courses like some in this forum have, and the only thing that those people BASH is the difference between the required score in the PAT (156 vs 164)... 8 strokes? REALLY 8 Strokes? that's one penalty for a ball hit into the woods or and one in the water combined with many 3 lipped out putts for PAR. These are things that happen to PGA pros ON TOUR all the time in tournaments, get over yourself, both are pressure situations, every golf game is, its that lack of error and rising to the occasion of perfection that makes it feels so great when you play a course well!
Hope this clarifies some stuff. Sorry I got a little caught up in the "excitement" and "hot air". The good thing is no matter what your stance is in this forum, you're all clearly passionate about the teaching side of golf and that I very much like to see.

[4wedges]

Re: CGTF vs. CPGA

Is this the thread that won't die? It started 8 years ago

[NickStarchuk]

Re: CGTF vs. CPGA

which part of the CGTF involves running member events, merchandising, and management skills of assistant and associate professionals?

CGTF is about Teaching

PGA is about being an all round professional at a golf club

They are not the same and should not be compared.

CGTF is the same as taking a Jim Hardy 1plane 2plane school, or a S&T instructor certification school. None of these provide you with the tools to run a golf shop or golf course.

To 'noanalogies' - I'd take a lesson from a handful of PGA members before taking one with Appleby or Norman. Don't get me wrong, I'd relish the opportunity to speak with them on my swing and the game in general, but as far as teaching me what I need to get better in the way I need to learn new info, I'd go to a pro I believe in.. every time, every time. (insert moe's voice here)

[northernpro]

Re: CGTF vs. CPGA

I've been in the golf business for 40+ years and met good and bad
teachers in both affiliations..its impossible to grade a teacher by
his or her affiliation..just saying!

[Bluefan75]

Re: CGTF vs. CPGA

What's interesting about this thread, and everything being discussed, is how the CPGA's multi-year program/commitment plays into the current environment where courses are simply not hiring pros any more. While one could say a lot of professions are seeing that, I think this is a particularly tough one. I have a designation in another field that took me 4 years to obtain. Companies aren't just simply not hiring people in my field due to the cost like courses seem to be doing with pros.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think it is interesting given the current environment, how the CPGA will be able to sell its program in the future. I know of one who was an assistant who has left the golf industry, another who is considering leaving, and we have another assistant who is far beyond the point of being ready to be a HP, yet, there are no openings. I'm hard pressed to find anyone who, thinking about the individual's best interests and not a continuing stream of dues to the head office, would recommend anyone get started in this profession.

I'm not saying the CGTF is or isn't better, but I can see the argument that it looks more attractive at the outset for someone considering going into the golf industry. Particularly if you have your own facility that takes away the need for access somewhere.

Interesting how the context from 8 years ago can be so different.

[northernpro]

Re: CGTF vs. CPGA

cost is a huge part of today's CPGA..a 3 year college diploma..living
at home..maybe $20,000..annual dues..seminar fees and maybe at
the end a job at GT for $35 to $40,000..as much as these young
people love the game,it does not pay the bills..