Handicapping Rule Change

[Shadow]

Re: Handicapping Rule Change

The constant bouncing up and down of handicaps is something that needs to be fixed especially as it can so easily be managed for advantage in current system. Rewards should come from playing above your norm and you should not be rewarded for playing below your norm.

Golfer's games are either moving towards or away from perfection so the constant change, up or down, in factors, reflects that natural ebb and flow. I just don't understand how this can be perceived as a problem necessitating a change to the system.

The biggest and most obvious problem is players not posting their scores and the few that post erroneous scores. With a booking system in place it is easy to find out the number of games any individual member plays and that can be compared to the number of games posted in the Golf Canada system, to establish a posting rate. Those who play in handicap events and who are also not entering scores, may have their factor, modified, withdrawn or penalty scores posted for them by the handicap Committee.

[Benz]

Re: Handicapping Rule Change

Please note that I am not advocating in any way the situation I am about to describe.

If the governing bodies begin to insist that scores be attested, then eventually the attesting players will need to be verified. What would prevent an unscrupulous person from creating 2-3 'phantom' player profiles that could be used to attest any of his rounds? Yes, there would be additional expense, but anyone who systematically sandbags must have a reason for doing so, i.e. to improve his winnings in net-score events.

I would think that most phantom profiles would reflect a factor that was below 10, which would imply that the player is skilled, plays often and probably knows the rules. In other words, a perfect regular playing companion for a sandbagger.

I have also heard of sandbaggers who maintain multiple player profiles under similar names (e.g. Thomsen, Thomson, Thompson, etc.) in order to be able to select which profile would be used for particular events.

[Benz]

Re: Handicapping Rule Change

The biggest and most obvious problem is players not posting their scores and the few that post erroneous scores. With a booking system in place it is easy to find out the number of games any individual member plays and that can be compared to the number of games posted in the Golf Canada system, to establish a posting rate.

I understand that many private clubs keep track of rounds played and rounds posted. However, what kind of booking system would be practical for a public player?

[gotogolf]

Re: Handicapping Rule Change

Please note that I am not advocating in any way the situation I am about to describe.

If the governing bodies begin to insist that scores be attested, then eventually the attesting players will need to be verified. What would prevent an unscrupulous person from creating 2-3 'phantom' player profiles that could be used to attest any of his rounds? Yes, there would be additional expense, but anyone who systematically sandbags must have a reason for doing so, i.e. to improve his winnings in net-score events.

I would think that most phantom profiles would reflect a factor that was below 10, which would imply that the player is skilled, plays often and probably knows the rules. In other words, a perfect regular playing companion for a sandbagger.

I have also heard of sandbaggers who maintain multiple player profiles under similar names (e.g. Thomsen, Thomson, Thompson, etc.) in order to be able to select which profile would be used for particular events.

Yes like steroids or anything in place where use is cheating, they'll always be a step ahead. Why were these changes proposed in the first place? To catch those who cheat?

Many vanity cappers don't even know they are doing so, and if they do it means nothing and only "hurts" themselves in the long run.

Actually some sandbaggers may just be that golfer who just has fun 90% of the time, doesn't care about that 3'er, drinks most rounds, doesn't bear down or just goes for broke all the time in search of that perfect round and come an event, plays serious and raises eyebrows.

Can you imagine playing match play and having to give 2 strokes to the person who plays a better game then you, but posts those types of scores (doesn't matter to me as I just have fun, but providing a scenario).

Sandbaggers do whatever they want and will continue to.

[Weirfan]

Re: Handicapping Rule Change

Actually some sandbaggers may just be that golfer who just has fun 90% of the time, doesn't care about that 3'er, drinks most rounds, doesn't bear down or just goes for broke all the time in search of that perfect round and come an event, plays serious and raises eyebrows.

This is an interesting comment and I'd be interested in hearing what people think . Is it sandbagging ?

I'm guessing for most golfers that casual rounds make up 95 + percent of their rounds played. Casual rounds are just that, they are relaxed in nature. It doesn't mean that a golfer doesn't care about what they score, still tries to shoot their best score whether casual or competitive.

Drinking while playing is an interesting one. Are you suggesting that scores should not count/be enterred when a person has consumed alcohol ? Perhaps the individual also Has a beer or 2 during their competitive rounds.

What about playing with a cold or other illness , fatigue or a nagging injury? Should these rounds also be excluded from the inclusion because they might result in a higher score than under "normal" conditions?

Then there is time of day, some golfers play better late in the day versus early in the morning. If I played all my rounds at 7:30 am , my handicap would easily be 3 or 4 strokes higher.

I agree with your comment that risk taking might be more in a non competitive round for some players.

Again, it's not a perfect system , and cheaters will cheat if they want but they are not fooling anybody. At a member - guest I play in a known Sandbagger won recently .There were many negative comments being made about him.

Most handicap committees I have been involved with do a good job of monitoring . Events I play in are either Opens, or they include a number of penalty strokes for failing to enters a certain number of tournament scores, having less than 30/20/10 scores enterred and for lack of recent scores enterred.

Perhaps the best solution is to only count competitive rounds towards ones handicap.

[Leftygolfer30]

Re: Handicapping Rule Change

This is an interesting comment and I'd be interested in hearing what people think . Is it sandbagging ?

I'm guessing for most golfers that casual rounds make up 95 + percent of their rounds played. Casual rounds are just that, they are relaxed in nature. It doesn't mean that a golfer doesn't care about what they score, still tries to shoot their best score whether casual or competitive.

Drinking while playing is an interesting one. Are you suggesting that scores should not count/be enterred when a person has consumed alcohol ? Perhaps the individual also Has a beer or 2 during their competitive rounds.

What about playing with a cold or other illness , fatigue or a nagging injury? Should these rounds also be excluded from the inclusion because they might result in a higher score than under "normal" conditions?

Then there is time of day, some golfers play better late in the day versus early in the morning. If I played all my rounds at 7:30 am , my handicap would easily be 3 or 4 strokes higher.

I agree with your comment that risk taking might be more in a non competitive round for some players.

Again, it's not a perfect system , and cheaters will cheat if they want but they are not fooling anybody. At a member - guest I play in a known Sandbagger won recently .There were many negative comments being made about him.

Most handicap committees I have been involved with do a good job of monitoring . Events I play in are either Opens, or they include a number of penalty strokes for failing to enters a certain number of tournament scores, having less than 30/20/10 scores enterred and for lack of recent scores enterred.

Perhaps the best solution is to only count competitive rounds towards ones handicap.

That's hardly a solution. If 95+ percent of people's rounds are non-competitive then hardly anyone would have a valid handicap.

I play one event a year that requires a valid RCGA cap. I couldn't play in that event if I only entered scores from competitive events.

[Weirfan]

Re: Handicapping Rule Change

[/B]

That's hardly a solution. If 95+ percent of people's rounds are non-competitive then hardly anyone would have a valid handicap.

I play one event a year that requires a valid RCGA cap. I couldn't play in that event if I only entered scores from competitive events.

Agreed, I too play in only a few competitive events a year so of 50 rounds only 10 or so are competitive in nature.

some people here are feel that casual rounds are not representative of a golfers true ability , that is why I suggested that perhaps the best method would be to only count T ( tournament) scores towards a handicap.

The problem with this though is then it only captures a small percentage of scores and that is not representative either.

It would mean that those who want to play in competitive events would need to play in more of them to establish a valid cap.

I could be mistaken but seem to recall that only competitive scores are counted towards handicaps in Britain. if that is so, they have found a way to make it work.

I have no issues with the current system and my t-scores fall in line with my casual round scores, as do most of the guys I play with who compete.

[gotogolf]

Re: Handicapping Rule Change

This is an interesting comment and I'd be interested in hearing what people think . Is it sandbagging ?

I'm guessing for most golfers that casual rounds make up 95 + percent of their rounds played. Casual rounds are just that, they are relaxed in nature. It doesn't mean that a golfer doesn't care about what they score, still tries to shoot their best score whether casual or competitive.

Drinking while playing is an interesting one. Are you suggesting that scores should not count/be enterred when a person has consumed alcohol ? Perhaps the individual also Has a beer or 2 during their competitive rounds.

What about playing with a cold or other illness , fatigue or a nagging injury? Should these rounds also be excluded from the inclusion because they might result in a higher score than under "normal" conditions?

Then there is time of day, some golfers play better late in the day versus early in the morning. If I played all my rounds at 7:30 am , my handicap would easily be 3 or 4 strokes higher.

I agree with your comment that risk taking might be more in a non competitive round for some players.

Again, it's not a perfect system , and cheaters will cheat if they want but they are not fooling anybody. At a member - guest I play in a known Sandbagger won recently .There were many negative comments being made about him.

Most handicap committees I have been involved with do a good job of monitoring . Events I play in are either Opens, or they include a number of penalty strokes for failing to enters a certain number of tournament scores, having less than 30/20/10 scores enterred and for lack of recent scores enterred.

Perhaps the best solution is to only count competitive rounds towards ones handicap.

I asked why are these rule changes being done? To catch sandbaggers? I don't fully understand nor care.

I played a men's night with a good golfer. He had his beer open @ the first tee. Men's night you want to play well, but heck really the money is in a skin anyhow.

He proceeded on the 3rd to put 3 OB. He swore up a storm, left one in the bunker and was way off missing short putts too. I could however tell he was a much better golfer then me, though our HC's were probably within 2 max.

I don't know if it was a one off or just a bad day, but know he won his flight in the Club Championship.

I'm sure he was not a sandbagger and a club fixture, but it was interesting watching him that one day.

[Weirfan]

Re: Handicapping Rule Change

I asked why are these rule changes being done? To catch sandbaggers? I don't fully understand nor care.

I played a men's night with a good golfer. He had his beer open @ the first tee. Men's night you want to play well, but heck really the money is in a skin anyhow.

He proceeded on the 3rd to put 3 OB. He swore up a storm, left one in the bunker and was way off missing short putts too. I could however tell he was a much better golfer then me, though our HC's were probably within 2 max.

I don't know if it was a one off or just a bad day, but know he won his flight in the Club Championship.

I'm sure he was not a sandbagger and a club fixture, but it was interesting watching him that one day.

sure, chit happens, that's why it's your lowest 10 of last 20 scores, only the good scores get counted towards your handicap, the bad ones get tossed.

I played with a scratch this fall who was having some swing issues and he barely broke 90.
In September, I shot 82 and 96/98 ( forget which) on the same day , same tees on the same course.

[gotogolf]

Re: Handicapping Rule Change

sure, chit happens, that's why it's your lowest 10 of last 20 scores, only the good scores get counted towards your handicap, the bad ones get tossed.

I played with a scratch this fall who was having some swing issues and he barely broke 90.
In September, I shot 82 and 96/98 ( forget which) on the same day , same tees on the same course.

That's the point, you know a person's ability in 90% of the case in 3-4 holes, however a person can play and manipulate their HC easily 2-3 shots per 1 based on their attitude, drinking, interest, a bad business call during the round......

So as I said Rule Change and eliminating non-attested rounds (or solo), is just silly imo.

[Galted]

Re: Handicapping Rule Change

That's the point, you know a person's ability in 90% of the case in 3-4 holes, however a person can play and manipulate their HC easily 2-3 shots per 1 based on their attitude, drinking, interest, a bad business call during the round......

So as I said Rule Change and eliminating non-attested rounds (or solo), is just silly imo.

Dropping 10 worse scores does theoretically help. The reality though is that you only are supposed to play to cap 3 times in 20 so it depends where those three fall off in the 20. Manipulators save their best play for same events and don't post good scores leading up to the events. That is why my analysis has shown flight winners are almost always players playing to a better level than their current handicap.

To answer your question, I would imagine that the manipulators would frequently play alone to wipe out their better games on a timely basis. Banning solo scores will just force them to post anyways so inconveniencing the rest of us will not solve the problem.

[Shadow]

Re: Handicapping Rule Change

I understand that many private clubs keep track of rounds played and rounds posted. However, what kind of booking system would be practical for a public player?

And if there was one available, who would police the entries, or lack of?

But, hypothetically, when a public player checks in at the Pro Shop, it is noted in their system that also has a connection to the Golf Canada handicap website, that the player has registered for a round and what tees from which he is going to play. Then, if a score is not entered within one week, the system automatically records a differential equal to the lowest one already in his scoring record. Simple.

[rulie]

Re: Handicapping Rule Change

And if there was one available, who would police the entries, or lack of?

Public players are assigned to a "club" and that club is required to have a handicap committee.

[Leftygolfer30]

Re: Handicapping Rule Change

Public players are assigned to a "club" and that club is required to have a handicap committee.

There's no real handicap committee at virtually every public course in Ontario.

[rulie]

Re: Handicapping Rule Change

There's no real handicap committee at virtually every public course in Ontario.

I was referring to the GAO/Golf Canada public player members, not public golf clubs.