Ball may be lost in a penalty area

[Playthru]

Had a situation yesterday. Hit a drive with a hook. Appeared to cross a river and then hook into the river as it bends .But was too far to tell whether it crossed the river or not.
If it did cross over the river and then hooked into the penalty area then I could drop on the other side, but I am not sure it did. If it didn’t cross the River then I need to take a drop on the near side. How to proceed?
This was a match and my opponent agreed to me dropping on the far side. But was that the correct ruling? What would you have done?
I couldn’t be virtually certain of either option.

[Fore Warned]

Probably one of the most confusing and awkward situations in golf.

With shrubs and tall grass around shoreline areas of a water hazard, it is often next to impossible to see if a ball actually did cross a hazard and bounced back into it, or just landed directly in the hazard.

My understanding is that one cannot hit a provisional ball, if it may be lost in a penalty area. You actually have to go and look for the ball to try and find it, or determine where it may be lost.

Once in the area of the ball's presumed landing, if it cannot be found, one has to determine if crossed the hazard and may be lost in an area outside of the hazard area, or if it is lost in the hazard. Alternatively, if the ball is found in the hazard, one has to determine if it crossed the hazard and bounced back into it, or just landed directly in it.

Unless someone actually saw what happened, it is a call to decide whether and where one can drop on the far side of the hazard or, have to go back to the tee, or to a spot near where the ball is presumed to have entered the hazard, to take a stroke and distance penalty for a lost ball.

Our club has established drop zones at the front end of every tee, allowing for provisional balls to be hit, where there is a potential to lose a ball in a river crossing the hole.

Just makes practical sense....and saves grief over uncertainty and time. One way of dealing with a silly rule.

I am sure others here will quote chapter and verse from the rules...but I believe this is what it boils down to.

Would be happy to hear if not.

[rulie]

First, a provisional is not permitted for a ball known to be in a penalty area. Provisionals are for balls that might be lost outside a penalty area or might be out of bounds.
In order to proceed under the penalty area Rule for a ball not found in the penalty area, it must be known or virtually certain (KVC, requires 95% certainty that the ball is in the penalty area). If it is not known or virtually certain that the ball is in the penalty area, the ball is considered lost outside the penalty area and the player must proceed under stroke and distance.
Playthru, from your description of the situation in match play, you and your opponent agreed on how to proceed, and since you weren't aware of the correct procedure, that decision stands. That does not apply in stroke play, as players and the Rules protect the rights of all the other players in the field.
Forewarned, I'm not sure what your club's dropping zones are meant to do. Dropping zones are normally used as an additional option to those options available in the Rules.

[Fore Warned]

First, a provisional is not permitted for a ball known to be in a penalty area. Provisionals are for balls that might be lost outside a penalty area or might be out of bounds.
In order to proceed under the penalty area Rule for a ball not found in the penalty area, it must be known or virtually certain (KVC, requires 95% certainty that the ball is in the penalty area). If it is not known or virtually certain that the ball is in the penalty area, the ball is considered lost outside the penalty area and the player must proceed under stroke and distance.
Playthru, from your description of the situation in match play, you and your opponent agreed on how to proceed, and since you weren't aware of the correct procedure, that decision stands. That does not apply in stroke play, as players and the Rules protect the rights of all the other players in the field.
Forewarned, I'm not sure what your club's dropping zones are meant to do. Dropping zones are normally used as an additional option to those options available in the Rules.

On the first item..the OP's point was that they did no know if the ball crossed the river, or whether it was in the hazard or not.

On the second point, the club's drop zones allow for a provisional to be hit in the event that a ball may not be found, even if is possible that it may have gone into a hazard. The local rule avoids having to go back across the river to reload. It is a very efficient and time saving way of dealing with the uncertainty in these situations.

With 6 forced carries over a river off the tees, at this club, the rule is a huge time saver.

[rulie]

On the first item..the OP's point was that they did no know if the ball crossed the river, or whether it was in the hazard or not.

On the second point, the club's drop zones allow for a provisional to be hit in the event that a ball may not be found, even if is possible that it may have gone into a hazard. The local rule avoids having to go back across the river to reload. It is a very efficient and time saving way of dealing with the uncertainty in these situations.

With 6 forced carries over a river off the tees, at this club, the rule is a huge time saver.

And probably not within the Rules of golf?

[Playthru]

First, a provisional is not permitted for a ball known to be in a penalty area. Provisionals are for balls that might be lost outside a penalty area or might be out of bounds.
In order to proceed under the penalty area Rule for a ball not found in the penalty area, it must be known or virtually certain (KVC, requires 95% certainty that the ball is in the penalty area). If it is not known or virtually certain that the ball is in the penalty area, the ball is considered lost outside the penalty area and the player must proceed under stroke and distance.
Playthru, from your description of the situation in match play, you and your opponent agreed on how to proceed, and since you weren't aware of the correct procedure, that decision stands. That does not apply in stroke play, as players and the Rules protect the rights of all the other players in the field.
Forewarned, I'm not sure what your club's dropping zones are meant to do. Dropping zones are normally used as an additional option to those options available in the Rules.

Thanks. We were more than 95% certain that the ball went in the hazard as it was going with such speed that it would not have stayed on the small area of the course on the bend. The only question was - did it cross into the penalty area before the other side of the river or after it got over the other side when it would have entered the hazard on the left side of the course. It could not be seen in the river or growth but that is not unusual.

[Fore Warned]

And probably not within the Rules of golf?

The OP's circumstances are (all too) common at our club. Tall vegetation, hidden corners and reverse slopes on the far side of water crossings often make it difficult to determine if balls make it across the penalty area and roll back into the hazard, or whether they flew directly into it.

I don't know the answer to your question. I don't have the rule in front of me to read. But if I recall, it includes a requirement to play the first ball if it is found outside of the penalty area. It may also allow for being able to play the original ball, if playable, if that is found in the penalty area. If someone is confident that the ball actually crossed over the far side boundary of the penalty area, and then re-entered it from that direction, they may take relief accordingly.

The local rule is meant only to avoid having to go back and forth across the river, where there is uncertainty of whether the ball did get across to the other side of the penalty area. Is there anything that would preclude such a local rule?

[Fore Warned]

Unapproved???? What's this?

[nomullies]

Unapproved???? What's this?

They are testing spam filters. Happened to me too.

[Fore Warned]

And probably not within the Rules of golf?

Checked with the Pro Shop. I was wrong. The drop areas at our club, at the far end of those tees fronting river crossings are not meant to be used for provisional balls, should one's drive be launched into the penalty area.

Seems for some it is more a case of local hearsay, folklore, or custom, than local rule.

We are in the same boat as the OP on this one.

[rulie]

Checked with the Pro Shop. I was wrong. The drop areas at our club, at the far end of those tees fronting river crossings are not meant to be used for provisional balls, should one's drive be launched into the penalty area.

Seems for some it is more a case of local hearsay, folklore, or custom, than local rule.

We are in the same boat as the OP on this one.

Thanks for the follow-up.