Provisional for an unplayable?

[kencise]

Re: Provisional for an unplayable?

What if I wanted to go over and pick up my ball? I didn't want to just leave my ball there. Obviously then, it's not a lost ball and therefore my provisional is cancelled out. Correct?

Yep.
Bottom line is, you can't play a provisional for an unplayable. Which is what Ignatius Reilly is talking about. The only time you can choose your provisional is when you don't find your ball.

[A Man Called Papa]

Re: Provisional for an unplayable?

I would have said "That may be lost. I'm going to play a provisional." and forfeit other options I would have had if went to see if it was unplayable. Then if I find it I can play it (I now can't call it unplayable)... But you don't have to look for it, and your opponents only have until you hit your next shot to find it themselves.

Your posts are just not tight enough to be instructive. If he finds it he can now call it unplayable. He just can't use the provisional.

It is not "until you hit your next shot", but rather until you fulfill one of the conditions to make the ball lost. For instance, you could hit you provisional as many times as you like as long as it is not from a place closer to the hole than you believed the original to be.

You also seem to be insisting that a player must find the ball in order to declare it unplayable, despite the fact that more than one of us has told you that this is wrong and supported our comments with a specific decision. Regardless of what qualifiers you want to put on the canyon, the simple fact is that you do not have to find a ball to declare it unplayable and replay the shot. The only part you appear to have gotten right is that you can not play a provisionally to see whether a ball is unplayable which several of us have said from the beginning and is the answer to the original question.

While you are right about water hazards and OOB, since replaying the shot is also an option or required in those cases, the more exact statement for AAA and others to have made would have been, for one stroke, you can replay the shot at any time without any regard to where it went, or where it is............ I know, not if it's in the hole.

I think your posts are just confusing people, but I'll leave you to it.

[A Man Called Papa]

Re: Provisional for an unplayable?

Not a member, first time playing the course. Wasn't really a garden with flowers and stuff, just fescue and bushes.

Gardens are pretty obviously gardens, and most courses, events, and Tours have a local rule that defines them as Ground Under Repair from which relief must be taken without penalty. What you are describing is not a garden. What you are describing is "just fescue and bushes".

[grasbunkers]

Re: Provisional for an unplayable?

is this thread for real?

your kidding right

[Benz]

Re: Provisional for an unplayable?

My post is not fundamentally incorrect.

A deep canyon would most likely be OB, and if not, you would have to at least check to see if it's in water or not.

With all due respect, I'm afraid it is.

Whatever would make you assert that a deep canyon would 'most likely be OB'? That just doesn't make any sense.

And, which rule says that you must confirm whether or not your ball is 'in water'?

[kencise]

Re: Provisional for an unplayable?

I know. I know. I have to apologize. What was I thinking. These other guys are like elite PGA officials or maybe even stupendous PGA officials on steroids! And then there is poor me. I can barely find this web site from day to day and have trouble putting my shoes on the right feet. O_o

[collidav]

Re: Provisional for an unplayable?

Playing today, hit a drive down the fairway. My next swing was with an 8 iron. After making contact with the ball it was clearly a shot that would be referred to as the five letter S word. Right off the hosel and right about 80 yards into long fescue and bush.

I decided to drop a ball and hit again. Calling a provisional for an unplayable. I figured this would be faster for play in the case of me finding my ball in the fescue but not wanting to try to hack it out. I did call it unplayable and it saved me from having to walk 80 yards to my ball in the fescue, declaring it unplayable, then walking back 80 yards and hitting again.

Was this cool?

In my opinion, it kept us moving and didn't waste time holding the group behind us up. But on the other hand, after I hit my provisional and saw where it landed it could have made it easier to call my original ball an unplayable.

What you did was fine.

What you called it was not per the rules.

If you hit an "unrequested lateral shot" (NOT the 5 letter S word) and it did NOT cross an out of bound stake and it did NOT cross a yellow or red staked hazard, you can declare the ball unplayable and replay under stroke and distance panalty. You do not have to find/identify a ball to declare it unplayable as long as the OB/hazard rules preceed your options.

Per the rules, just remember, you can only declare a provisional ball for potentially lost or OB.

[mpare]

Re: Provisional for an unplayable?

Some are qualified officials, others of us just read the Rules and the Decisions when needed. They're not that impenetrable, if you think about them logically. Best of all, you can put your right shoe on your left foot and it shouldn't affect your ability to read the Rules and the Decisions.

I know. I know. I have to apologize. What was I thinking. These other guys are like elite PGA officials or maybe even stupendous PGA officials on steroids! And then there is poor me. I can barely find this web site from day to day and have trouble putting my shoes on the right feet. O_o

[A Man Called Papa]

Re: Provisional for an unplayable?

What you did was fine.

What you called it was not per the rules.

If you hit an "unrequested lateral shot" (NOT the 5 letter S word) and it did NOT cross an out of bound stake and it did NOT cross a yellow or red staked hazard, you can declare the ball unplayable and replay under stroke and distance panalty. You do not have to find/identify a ball to declare it unplayable as long as the OB/hazard rules preceed your options.

Per the rules, just remember, you can only declare a provisional ball for potentially lost or OB.

But you see, what a rules forum is about is "per the rules". His question was "Was this cool?". So I don't see the point of your statement that what he "did was fine". He is asking can he do this under the rules, and as we all including you have beat to death, the answer is no.

[Malibook]

Re: Provisional for an unplayable?

You also seem to be insisting that a player must find the ball in order to declare it unplayable, despite the fact that more than one of us has told you that this is wrong and supported our comments with a specific decision. Regardless of what qualifiers you want to put on the canyon, the simple fact is that you do not have to find a ball to declare it unplayable and replay the shot.

If you hit an "unrequested lateral shot" (NOT the 5 letter S word) and it did NOT cross an out of bound stake and it did NOT cross a yellow or red staked hazard, you can declare the ball unplayable and replay under stroke and distance panalty. You do not have to find/identify a ball to declare it unplayable as long as the OB/hazard rules preceed your options.

What is the point in declaring an unfound ball as unplayable if your only relief option is going to be to replay the shot?

Just put another ball in play without declaring anything.

The reason this is confusing to some people is because it doesn`t make sense and it`s as if one is implying that they can guess the position of the ball and use another relief option.
Or they just like to confuse people and hear themselves speak.

[Malibook]

Re: Provisional for an unplayable?

You can declare a ball unplayable at any time, whether or not you know where it is. The only constraint is that you must play from the original position if you don't know where it is.
It becomes lost as soon as another ball is played which is not declared to be a provisional.

Declaring an unfound ball as being an unplayable lie is about as relevant as singing a song or reciting some poetry.

[A Man Called Papa]

Re: Provisional for an unplayable?

What is the point in declaring an unfound ball as unplayable if your only relief option is going to be to replay the shot?

Just put another ball in play without declaring anything.

The reason this is confusing to some people is because it doesn`t make sense and it`s as if one is implying that they can guess the position of the ball and use another relief option.
Or they just like to confuse people and hear themselves speak.

The point is that under the rules, it is necessary to tie an action to some rule. While I might agree with you that under a dictionary definition of "unplayable" we really don't know what the status of the ball is, however, in the absence of any of the other reasons for applying Stroke and Distance, the RofG allow this escape hatch under Rule 28, Ball Unplayable.

Applying dictionary definitions to the key words in the RofG just does not work. Recently, the Fellow Competitors of a young lad found his ball after I had call that the search had exceded 5 minutes. Of course the kid wanted to play the original ball and we went back and forth with "The ball is lost": "But it is right there", exchanges until I finally told him that he could be DQ'd if he played the original ball. But, I suspect that you understand the concept of a RofG definition compared to a common dictionary definition for many golf terms. While I try my best not to confuse people, you are right that I enjoy sharing the knowledge that I worked so hard to acquire.

Oops, just saw your response to AAA and maybe I'm wrong, and the concept is beyond your understanding.

[Malibook]

Re: Provisional for an unplayable?

The point is that under the rules, it is necessary to tie an action to some rule. While I might agree with you that under a dictionary definition of "unplayable" we really don't know what the status of the ball is, however, in the absence of any of the other reasons for applying Stroke and Distance, the RofG allow this escape hatch under Rule 28, Ball Unplayable.

Applying dictionary definitions to the key words in the RofG just does not work. Recently, the Fellow Competitors of a young lad found his ball after I had call that the search had exceded 5 minutes. Of course the kid wanted to play the original ball and we went back and forth with "The ball is lost": "But it is right there", exchanges until I finally told him that he could be DQ'd if he played the original ball. But, I suspect that you understand the concept of a RofG definition compared to a common dictionary definition for many golf terms. While I try my best not to confuse people, you are right that I enjoy sharing the knowledge that I worked so hard to acquire.

Oops, just saw your response to AAA and maybe I'm wrong, and the concept is beyond your understanding.

You and I both hit a ball into the canyon or whatever.

I take out another ball and replay the shot without saying a word.

You like to confuse people and hear yourself talk so you declare that the unfound ball is in an unplayable lie.

Please enlighten me on the difference and the significance of your words.

[mpare]

Re: Provisional for an unplayable?

That comment is hardly fair or justified. The difference between Papa and you, is that he is trying to help people understand the Rules as written, interpreted and applied. You, on the other hand, simply want them interpreted and applied according to your own perspective. If that were the end of it, then so be it. But it isn't. You prefer to belitttle others who disagree with you, while they try to enlighten others in how to play golf according to the rules.

...

You like to confuse people and hear yourself talk so you declare that the unfound ball is in an unplayable lie.

Please enlighten me on the difference and the significance of your words.

[JGT4]

Re: Provisional for an unplayable?

You and I both hit a ball into the canyon or whatever.

I take out another ball and replay the shot without saying a word.

You like to confuse people and hear yourself talk so you declare that the unfound ball is in an unplayable lie.

Please enlighten me on the difference and the significance of your words.

I have to agree with you. Just compare the two rules 27 and 28

27-1. Stroke and Distance; Ball Out of Bounds; Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes

[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/John/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.png[/IMG]a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance
At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.


Rule 28. Ball Unplayable

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:
a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or


So Papa, we do not need Rule 28 to allow us to proceed under stroke and distance.