Trudeau Promise Meter

[Tanner]

Re: Trudeau Promise Meter

As for the possible $50k in realtor expenses, they can claim that regardless of their position, provided they are relocating more than 40km closer to their place of employment. That goes for everyone, not just government employees.

[r1404]

Re: Trudeau Promise Meter

The expenses in question include approximately $20,000 each for "personalized cash payouts". Reading several articles, as well as the statement from the individuals, it seems clear that these payments were NOT in respect of expenses incurred. That the policy may have permitted such payments is an outrage, and yet another reminder in a list of thousands about how governments of all stripes fail to recognize that they are not spending their own money. As regards the individuals, I am really only interested in the answers to 2 questions:

1. Did they claim those $20,000 amounts, or was it given to them over and above what they claimed?

2. What period of time has passed between when they received those payments and when they had their "revelation"?

The answers to those questions would be telling.

[r1404]

Re: Trudeau Promise Meter

As for the possible $50k in realtor expenses, they can claim that regardless of their position, provided they are relocating more than 40km closer to their place of employment. That goes for everyone, not just government employees.

Are you not speaking of a tax deduction/tax credit? If so, this is quite different than getting a cheque from your employer for $50k, would you not agree?

[Tanner]

Re: Trudeau Promise Meter

Are you not speaking of a tax deduction/tax credit? If so, this is quite different than getting a cheque from your employer for $50k, would you not agree?

that is what im speaking of, I assumed thats what these people were able to do as well. If they were infact handed a $50k cheque then yes i agree it is very different.

[Kriz]

Re: Trudeau Promise Meter

nevermind

[bogey5]

Re: Trudeau Promise Meter

Are these people civil servants on the gov't payroll or political hacks/drinking buddies of the party in power?
If civil servants then surely there was an open recruitment process and they were deemed the best available and worth the extra relocation costs vs anybody that already resides in Ottawa.
If they're political hacks/drinking buddies why doesn't the political party they hack for pay their salaries and expenses?

[Jeffc]

Re: Trudeau Promise Meter

Are these people civil servants on the gov't payroll or political hacks/drinking buddies of the party in power?
If civil servants then surely there was an open recruitment process and they were deemed the best available and worth the extra relocation costs vs anybody that already resides in Ottawa.
If they're political hacks/drinking buddies why doesn't the political party they hack for pay their salaries and expenses?

perhaps read the article. They were his top 2 staffers. They are employers of the Federal Government, not "political hacks".

Here's the post from Gerald Butts FB page with the breakdowns

https://www.facebook.com/gerald.butts.54/posts/10154477741530011

Katie and I feel like we owe people an explanation after the news stories involving our families over the last couple of days. Here’s our best shot at it.
It has been the government of Canada’s policy to reimburse relocation costs of senior officials and their families since the 1970s. This policy has been updated periodically over the years. The last update was in 2011. Upon forming government, the Prime Minister’s office adopted that policy, which is described in the Treasury Board guidelines you can find here http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/…/…/pgmo-pl...ldcmtb-eng.asp .The guidelines that govern the real estate expenses and the process that generates reimbursements are all managed by a third party, Brookfield.
As this process relates to us, we were eligible to be reimbursed for a bunch of costs that we don’t feel comfortable about. While the rules were clear and we followed them, we both know that’s not always enough. In the interests of living the government’s and Team Trudeau’s values of transparency and accountability, we are releasing a breakdown of both our families’ eligible expenses, refusing or refunding payment for a significant portion of them, and taking full responsibility for the whole series of events that led to this point .
In the case of the Telford/Silver household, our expenses were:
Moving logistics: $10,735.50
Real Estate Commission, fees and employer taxes: $44,149.40
Personalized cash payout and incidentals: $23,373.71
Administration fees: $1577.94
Travel: $546.00
In the case of the Butts household, our expenses were:
Moving logistics: $14,636.39
Real Estate Commission, fees and employer taxes: $47,103.56
Personalized cash payout and incidentals: $20,799.10
Land transfer tax, legal fees and insurance: $25,141.31
Temporary rental lodging (apartment) : $18,247.60
Administration fees: $468.60
Travel: $273.00
When we reviewed these costs, we decided that the amount called “personalized cash payout” which is for miscellaneous moving expenses is unreasonable, and we will both be reimbursing that amount. The principle we took to these decisions is that we should only be reimbursed the actual cost we paid third parties to make the move happen.
Additionally in Gerry’s case, he also decided it was unreasonable to be reimbursed for the land transfer tax associated with the cost of his new family home, over and above what would have been the cost of the tax on a home at the average house price in Ottawa for 2016.
These kinds of breakdowns have never been released before. As leaders of the government’s exempt staff, we take responsibility for this policy. We will not be asking the same reimbursements of other exempt staff, nor will we call on members of previous governments to do the same.
We know that some people will think that any amount for relocation is unreasonable, and that there never should have been such a policy in the first place. For our part, we want to make sure that our friends and families know we followed a policy that has been in place for decades, and will only be reimbursed for the hard costs of our families making the move.
We take full responsibility for this having happened and because of that we are sorry. We’ve learned a lot of lessons over the past few days, and we commit to continuing to improve transparency in the future.
The Prime Minister has asked the Secretary of the Treasury Board to create a new policy to govern relocation expenses across government.
Katie and Gerry
Policies for Ministers' Offices - January 2011
The Compensation and Labour Relations Sector of the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat (the Secretariat) publishes and co-ordinates the preparation of this document based on input provided by the Prime Minister's Office and by policy centres at the Secretariat, National Defence, Public Works and G...
TBS-SCT.GC.CA

[vermin40]

Re: Trudeau Promise Meter

perhaps read the article. They were his top 2 staffers. They are employers of the Federal Government, not "political hacks".

Here's the post from Gerald Butts FB page with the breakdowns

https://www.facebook.com/gerald.butts.54/posts/10154477741530011

Katie and I feel like we owe people an explanation after the news stories involving our families over the last couple of days. Here’s our best shot at it.
It has been the government of Canada’s policy to reimburse relocation costs of senior officials and their families since the 1970s. This policy has been updated periodically over the years. The last update was in 2011. Upon forming government, the Prime Minister’s office adopted that policy, which is described in the Treasury Board guidelines you can find here http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/…/…/pgmo-pl...ldcmtb-eng.asp .The guidelines that govern the real estate expenses and the process that generates reimbursements are all managed by a third party, Brookfield.
As this process relates to us, we were eligible to be reimbursed for a bunch of costs that we don’t feel comfortable about. While the rules were clear and we followed them, we both know that’s not always enough. In the interests of living the government’s and Team Trudeau’s values of transparency and accountability, we are releasing a breakdown of both our families’ eligible expenses, refusing or refunding payment for a significant portion of them, and taking full responsibility for the whole series of events that led to this point .
In the case of the Telford/Silver household, our expenses were:
Moving logistics: $10,735.50
Real Estate Commission, fees and employer taxes: $44,149.40
Personalized cash payout and incidentals: $23,373.71
Administration fees: $1577.94
Travel: $546.00
In the case of the Butts household, our expenses were:
Moving logistics: $14,636.39
Real Estate Commission, fees and employer taxes: $47,103.56
Personalized cash payout and incidentals: $20,799.10
Land transfer tax, legal fees and insurance: $25,141.31
Temporary rental lodging (apartment) : $18,247.60
Administration fees: $468.60
Travel: $273.00
When we reviewed these costs, we decided that the amount called “personalized cash payout” which is for miscellaneous moving expenses is unreasonable, and we will both be reimbursing that amount. The principle we took to these decisions is that we should only be reimbursed the actual cost we paid third parties to make the move happen.
Additionally in Gerry’s case, he also decided it was unreasonable to be reimbursed for the land transfer tax associated with the cost of his new family home, over and above what would have been the cost of the tax on a home at the average house price in Ottawa for 2016.
These kinds of breakdowns have never been released before. As leaders of the government’s exempt staff, we take responsibility for this policy. We will not be asking the same reimbursements of other exempt staff, nor will we call on members of previous governments to do the same.
We know that some people will think that any amount for relocation is unreasonable, and that there never should have been such a policy in the first place. For our part, we want to make sure that our friends and families know we followed a policy that has been in place for decades, and will only be reimbursed for the hard costs of our families making the move.
We take full responsibility for this having happened and because of that we are sorry. We’ve learned a lot of lessons over the past few days, and we commit to continuing to improve transparency in the future.
The Prime Minister has asked the Secretary of the Treasury Board to create a new policy to govern relocation expenses across government.
Katie and Gerry
Policies for Ministers' Offices - January 2011
The Compensation and Labour Relations Sector of the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat (the Secretariat) publishes and co-ordinates the preparation of this document based on input provided by the Prime Minister's Office and by policy centres at the Secretariat, National Defence, Public Works and G...
TBS-SCT.GC.CA

I was wondering what "personalized cash payout" was when reading the list.
Then he explained it clearly....the cash I had no business claiming for.

[SeanFTW]

Re: Trudeau Promise Meter

perhaps read the article. They were his top 2 staffers. They are employers of the Federal Government, not "political hacks".

Here's the post from Gerald Butts FB page with the breakdowns

https://www.facebook.com/gerald.butts.54/posts/10154477741530011

Honesty, openness and transparency is a wonderful thing. Good on them for coming out with this.

[SeanFTW]

Re: Trudeau Promise Meter

I was wondering what "personalized cash payout" was when reading the list.
Then he explained it clearly....the cash I had no business claiming for.

...but was entitled to anyways, based on the rules put in place well before Trudeau.

I travel a lot for work, and sure, it may not be tax payers money, but I can assure you I will try to get reimbursed for everything possible within the rules.

[68shark]

Re: Trudeau Promise Meter

They are all expenses in my view that are being incurred based on an employee being asked to relocate or a new employee being brought on. I don't see how an employee should take the hit. Again, this is commonplace throughout the world and it's the media making a big deal out of something that happens dozens of times (or more) every week within the Federal Government. There are rules in place that cover this and likely have been in place for many years. If the rules were broken then I'm all for the people paying them back. If the rules were followed then the arguement shouldn't be with the people that followed them.

I agree. I used to work for an insurance firm that had a relocation policy which covered everything from movers/real estate/legal fees/househunting trips/one trip a year with family to go "home". Would buy the house from you if the market was such it wouldn't sell and offered 0% mortgages if moving from a low cost to high cost location. I haven't followed the math here but the land transfer tax is a cost that the employee should not bear, nor real estate commission. Whether the employee made a killing on the sale of the Toronto house is irrelevant. While I frequently sound off about the public sector pensions (because the rest of us don't have this luxury), relocation assistance seems similar to what's in the private sector at management/exec level positions.

[pendlebg]

Re: Trudeau Promise Meter

I agree. I used to work for an insurance firm that had a relocation policy which covered everything from movers/real estate/legal fees/househunting trips/one trip a year with family to go "home". Would buy the house from you if the market was such it wouldn't sell and offered 0% mortgages if moving from a low cost to high cost location. I haven't followed the math here but the land transfer tax is a cost that the employee should not bear, nor real estate commission. Whether the employee made a killing on the sale of the Toronto house is irrelevant. While I frequently sound off about the public sector pensions (because the rest of us don't have this luxury), relocation assistance seems similar to what's in the private sector at management/exec level positions.

If RE commissions and LTT are normal payouts for any industry then I would not object to them in this case. My comments questioning it were only based on whether I thought it was debatable to pay for anyone in any industry. If they are widely accepted as expensable then I really have no issue with it. And yes I know it was not you personally responding to my previous posts, but you are the first who actually pointed out those expenses are SOP so thanks for that.

On the question of personal expenses I would still stick with a response that I would hope $20K in expenses are backed up with receipts.

[vermin40]

Re: Trudeau Promise Meter

Honesty, openness and transparency is a wonderful thing. Good on them for coming out with this.

....and kudos to the G&M for making it public...and allowing them to be honest, open and transparent.

[Trips]

Re: Trudeau Promise Meter

Despite what the opposition seems to want everyone to believe, they have taken the same benefits previously;

https://ca.yahoo.com/news/tables-turned-as-tories-questioned-on-harper-era-175237035.html

Not sure what the big deal is about 200 or 325 k with the vast fortune both parties have wasted over the years?!?

[bogey5]

Re: Trudeau Promise Meter

[QUOTE=Jeffc;1576332]perhaps read the article. They were his top 2 staffers. They are employers of the Federal Government, not "political hacks".

I thought the article described them as "political staffers" which sounds like party hacks to my ears not civil service positions and I don't care what party it is. Obviously if they're key government employees that are being relocated and there's nobody else in Ottawa that can do the job the employer pays for the move. Next we hear from these folks will likely be when they submit expenses to go the other way about 6 months before their boss decides to step down or is replaced and they move onto their next party patronage/campaign job.