Toronto Maple Leafs 2019 - 2020 thread

[NineNineSix]

He has always been slow....he has strengths that compensate and make him a good player, he is very strong on the puck and a force in front of the net and can put the biscuit in the basket. 7 years was likely a few years too long a deal though .

it's hard to not take a player of his ilk though however his 11 million on top of the rich contracts of the 3 kids has resulted in significant player turnover watered down the team.

lets not forget Leafs were DEAD last in the NHL in
2015/16 with 69 points...drafted AM

In comes Coach Babcock ....
2016/17......95 points ....30 points better and playoffs
2017/18 ......105 points and playoffs

Then in comes Speadsheet Boy

2018/19.....100 points....playoffs just barely
2019/20.....trending for 82 points, Playoffs ? (I fully expect them to make the playoffs this season.)

LOL are you ok? So many mistakes in your recent posts I don’t know where to start, but here is an easy one:

Babcock coached the team to a dead last finish.

[4wedges]

This team is soft and selfish. Only guy who gives a damn is Hyman.
Both Matthews and Tavares spew cliché responses when asked questions, they are not leaders by any means.

I don't think we can assess their leadership qualities based on responses to media questions. We have no idea what is said behind closed doors.

[Lefty17]

He has always been slow....he has strengths that compensate and make him a good player, he is very strong on the puck and a force in front of the net and can put the biscuit in the basket. 7 years was likely a few years too long a deal though .

it's hard to not take a player of his ilk though however his 11 million on top of the rich contracts of the 3 kids has resulted in significant player turnover watered down the team.

lets not forget Leafs were DEAD last in the NHL in
2015/16 with 69 points...drafted AM

In comes Coach Babcock ....
2016/17......95 points ....30 points better and playoffs
2017/18 ......105 points and playoffs

Then in comes Speadsheet Boy

2018/19.....100 points....playoffs just barely
2019/20.....trending for 82 points, Playoffs ? (I fully expect them to make the playoffs this season.)

End of the day the coach has to look at his roster and coach those players skill sets and make them into a team. Not coach his style and hope that the players by in. A coach shouldn’t have to make 2 trips to Arizona to discuss ice time with a star player.

Nylanders deal is looking good the way he’s producing this year. But when you see an 8 million dollar Draisaitl that’s on another planet compared to the 3 making 11 million it’s pretty bad. Lol

[Weirfan]

Babcock coached the team to a dead last finish.

That is true, my bad, nonetheless the trend is still the same.....

Babcock ( and Lou) took a turned a really bad team around and they progressively got better ( points wise) each and every year under them.
In comes Dubas and the team has gotten progressively worse. Yet you see Babcock as the sole reason . Lol

Revised for you
2014/15 = 68 points before babcock

With babcock....
69points
95 points
105 points

Since dubas took over
100 points
82* points ?

[Fredk]

LOL are you ok? So many mistakes in your recent posts I don’t know where to start, but here is an easy one:

Babcock coached the team to a dead last finish.

Context is everything. Dead last with a demoralized and not overly talented team that had no discipline. There is also a reasonable possibility that they tanked deliberately. They weren't going to make it very far anyway. Why not hit bottom and get a top draft pick?

That's all water under the bridge. The gamble on Sparks failed. It is not unreasonable to hope that your top AHL goalie makes the transition to the NHL.

Maybe Gardener wasn't nearly as bad as people thought.

Paying so much for a few very talented players has put the leafs in a bind. They gave up too much on the D this year and now they are in a real pickle.

[Weirfan]

End of the day the coach has to look at his roster and coach those players skill sets and make them into a team. Not coach his style and hope that the players by in. A coach shouldn’t have to make 2 trips to Arizona to discuss ice time with a star player.

How is Babcock not letting the players play their game? They are and have been a top offensive team each year.

here is another thought, how about a GM that understand what it takes to win in hockey and builds a team that is good and balanced in all aspects of the game, not just offensive abilities....
if signing Barrie and Ceci with horrific career defensive stats is Dubas's idea of improving the team D and lets add Spezza, Petan, ....two more defensive monsters ....all soft as feathers too

you blame Babcock for trying to install some defensive responsibility in players who have none ? Ask Kaskisuo and Hutch what what they think of the team d...

[SoooSIRIUS]

Your with and without Babcock arguments could also be named with and without Matthews, Marners, Nylander. No kidding they got better. Stop box score watching, Babcock is not coaching this team to it's strengths.

[Lefty17]

Line matching. Killing momentum with 4th line ice time in key situations. Limiting your best players to mid teen minutes. Why does your 4th line even touch the ice in the last 5 minutes of a one goal game your losing. Why have your systems not changed. What in game adjustments are you making. It’s 5-0 last night and you don’t do a damn thing.

Coaches have to adapt to what’s in front of him. I don’t see it. Dubas’ hands aren’t clean in this. He has a theory on how to build a team but building a successful OHL team is different then an AHL team but he’s built a successful AHL team but that’s also much different then a NHL team. Unless he can find cap space and make a couple miracle deals to get rid of Barrie and Ceci he’s got his work cut out for him.

[Emtee]

How is Babcock not letting the players play their game? They are and have been a top offensive team each year.

here is another thought, how about a GM that understand what it takes to win in hockey and builds a team that is good and balanced in all aspects of the game, not just offensive abilities....
if signing Barrie and Ceci with horrific career defensive stats is Dubas's idea of improving the team D and lets add Spezza, Petan, ....two more defensive monsters ....all soft as feathers too

you blame Babcock for trying to install some defensive responsibility in players who have none ? Ask Kaskisuo and Hutch what what they think of the team d...

You know what, ship ‘em both out. BTW, anyone with some nhl hockey knowledge could have coached that 17/18 team with all that leadership. But the fans and the media were all screaming to get younger.

When does Shanahan get some **** slung at him as well? Isn’t he like Masai Ujiri of MLSE hockey operations. I can’t picture Masai hiding from a catastrophe like this.

[NineNineSix]

Fortunately or not, Babcock’s time has clearly run out as it is apparent the players have stopped playing for him. You can say what you want about Dubas, but it would be insanity to hire a GM and then fire him before he even has a chance to hire his own head coach. So, if Dubas isn’t going anywhere in the immediate future, the core of the team isn’t going anywhere, you just replaced both assistant coaches this year....all that’s left is the head coach.

22 games into the season and I think we can all agree the record flatters them at this point. Looking at points flatters then even more because we have played the most games in the league, there are only 7 teams with less points per game played. There hasn’t been one really strong win. The team routinely appears unprepared to play at the beginning of games, I believe giving up the first goal 18 out of 22 games so far. The special teams are atrocious for a team with this skill level. The top 2 D pairings have been carved in stone for some reason despite horrid results. And now the offence is drying up, with advanced statistics showing a paucity of high danger scoring chances and a bizarrely high volume of low impact point shots (which was always a hallmark of Flyers while Hakstol was there). There has been little to no progression in Matthews’ 200 foot game. Rielly has taken an inexplicable step back this year and is embarrassed defensively on almost a nightly basis. Marner before he was hurt had taken a huge step back in his overall play, particularly at 5v5. All the goalies have been bad. I mean, the players who have overachieved this year have been....Holl? A guy Babcock benched for 70 odd games last year (he benched Leivo for a full season too and he’s looking pretty good now). Maybe the Soup Man? Anyone else? Nobody looks like they are getting better, which is the job of the coaching staff.

So what is to be done? Keefe is waiting in the wings with the Marlies and has been tabbed as the heir apparent for some time now. Babcock is a coach who can’t get out of the first round of the playoffs anyway. He’s been an abject playoff failure for a decade now, I simply don’t see what you’re holding onto with him at this point. He clearly wants to play boring, low event hockey and that simply isn’t what this roster is built to do.

[NineNineSix]

[dlam]

Leafs are a mess. I agree with Button on TSN Babs gotta go. They should be better in standings than they are now.

[Arthur Dailey]

Babcock is probably not the root cause of the problem.

However letting him go is the quickest, easiest short term solution.

It is obvious that the majority of the team, for whatever reason is not 'putting out for him'.
This might be because there is no way to 'punish'/discipline many of them. Big contracts, with little to no chance that the GM will move them. And little to no chance that the coach can sit them.

And now with all the media talk about the coach's role being tenuous, they can tune him out and wait as the fingers are pointed at them, instead of him.

Coaching changes often work. short term. Those in business management understand this as part of the 'Hawthorne Effect'.

After that Shanahan can decide whether to continue with Dubas' philosophy or to remove him and try a different, more traditional approach.

[Weirfan]

You know what, ship ‘em both out. BTW, anyone with some nhl hockey knowledge could have coached that 17/18 team with all that leadership. But the fans and the media were all screaming to get younger.

When does Shanahan get some ***** slung at him as well? Isn’t he like Masai Ujiri of MLSE hockey operations. I can’t picture Masai hiding from a catastrophe like this.

Every coach and GM has flaws but usually there is some consensus on what they feel is the recipe for their team's success and they work together. It's glaringly obvious that Dubas and Babcock differ in that. Babs has been vocal for a few years that he would like more heaviness and better defensive players, Dubas has done the opposite, traded anyone they had that had a little jam and who played half decent defensively and replaced them with softer and weaker players...with the exception of perhaps the Muzzin acquisition.

You are right in that blame needs to be pointed in each and every direction.
However, as Hayes said, a loses like last night is 100% on the players. This Leaf team , with the exception of a small handful, is lazy, selfish and afraid to work hard in both ends of the ice. Playing good defence requires both defensive skill and a lot of hard work, this current team ( outside a few ) hasn't shown either. That comes down to a personnel issue. Who is responsible for the personnel.....Dubas. Who is responsible for working hard, the players with coach pushing them. If the players are playing to get Babcock fired....what does that say about their character ....not much....we don't like this coach so we are going to quit.....screams of selfish entitlement......try doing that at your place of business and see how that works out. But, if the players quit what is Management supposed to do....can't fire all the players so the coach is targeted.

The problem I see with Babcock trying to get the team to play a more "playoff" oriented game and tighter defensive style is that he doesn't have the players capable of doing that. Even if the team, or more likely Freddie, keeps a game close .....the problem with close games is that the Leafs make too many blunders that end up in the back of the net. Also, the closer the game is, the more special teams are crucial to swinging the balance. Last year in the playoffs a big reason that the Leafs were beaten was because Boston had better special team. Unfortunately, Brown, Zaitsev, Hainsey, Kadri were all PK guys and Dubas traded them leaving really only Hyman and Marner who are good on the PK ....as such the PK has suffered and is bottom 10. The PP is the head scratcher and here I can point blame at Babs and his coaching staff....with the offensive talent it should be better than 21st and Barrie should be given a chance on PP1 as he has a decent shot and has done well as the PP quarterback with the Avs.

I dont know much about Keefe but would think that there is some carry over and consistency with team philosophy and structure that takes place between the parent and minor team. Dubas has a history with him and so he is the obvious heir apparent. Burkie was saying that usually when a coach loses the room a rogue player lets his agent know, or an agent with a couple players on the team makes it known and that leads to the coaches dismissal.

Found it interesting that Dubas referenced the St Louis turnaround in his press conference .....maybe he was foreshadowing but turnaround was more about Jordan Binnington joining the team as it was Berube.

[Weirfan]

Your with and without Babcock arguments could also be named with and without Matthews, Marners, Nylander. No kidding they got better. .

Actually the point was with and without Dubas...

Matthews, Marner, Willy ( and Babcock) were all here before Dubas yet in the two seasons since Dubas came on board the team has regressed ...why when they were so steadily improving before him?

Why ......Dubas and his personnel changes are the only difference.

Babs, we have a great young offensive core but needs for heavier/tougher and better defensive players.

Dubas, here you go Babs, two D men with a combined career plus minus of over -110.
Oh and sorry about the toughness thing but instead of Hainsey, Brown and Kadri I got you Petan, Spezza, Kerfoot, Barrie.....

oh and to make matters even better I got rid of McIlhenney, your proven NHL backup who played fantastic for you and replaced him with a couple cheaper guys....these guys were good minor leaguers.....make sure you don't overwork Freddie, we need him for the playoffs.

with moves like this you would almost think Dubas is setting Babs to fail.

Babs may or may not be the right coach and as AD and I have said , coaching changes usually bring about a temporary boost.....if the players are quitting though its a more deep rooted issue than just Babs.

The time is now if Dubas wants to make a move because this team is better than their record and performance so will eventually start playing better and so if he wants it to appear as Babcock was the reason and get the credit himself and towards the new coach....actin now will be the best for him and the new coach going forward. In that respect, it is probably similar to StLouis