Handicaps and Tournament Scores

[stevedimebag]

Re: Handicaps and Tournament Scores

personally I would say it quite absurd to use matchplay scores for handicap purposes. It is [potentially] a completely different game in terms of scoring and playing style. there is the obvious issue of pickups etc but also, when you need to chip in for a halve or you need to hole a 40 footer for a halve your play on that shot may be completely different to if you were trying to manage a score you had going in a normal 18 hole medal/tournament round.

[blftotoo]

Re: Handicaps and Tournament Scores

personally I would say it quite absurd to use matchplay scores for handicap purposes. It is [potentially] a completely different game in terms of scoring and playing style. there is the obvious issue of pickups etc but also, when you need to chip in for a halve or you need to hole a 40 footer for a halve your play on that shot may be completely different to if you were trying to manage a score you had going in a normal 18 hole medal/tournament round.

Yup... If your opponent is middle fairway off the tee and you're in the fescue you have a choice between kicking out and needing to make a putt or trying the 10% shot to get it near the green. In medal play you do 1, in match play you may do 2.

[wlorcb]

Re: Handicaps and Tournament Scores

Yup... If your opponent is middle fairway off the tee and you're in the fescue you have a choice between kicking out and needing to make a putt or trying the 10% shot to get it near the green. In medal play you do 1, in match play you may do 2.

The flip side to this is that you should be perfectly OK with playing ANY match straight up, no h/c used by either player. After all, if the h/c is based on stroke play only, then how could it be used for a round that is played under such totally dissimilar conditions?

[blftotoo]

Re: Handicaps and Tournament Scores

The flip side to this is that you should be perfectly OK with playing ANY match straight up, no h/c used by either player. After all, if the h/c is based on stroke play only, then how could it be used for a round that is played under such totally dissimilar conditions?

Interesting... There's an assumption that every player every time tries his best as would be expected in a stroke play competition. When for the vast majority of players, they don't: often many are playing a casual, non-competitive game, don't intensively study a putt or check the wind or exactly determine the yardage.

The handicap system is about the best in sports (maybe bowling?) that allows players of unequal ability to compete. But golf is not always played in a competition.

[stevedimebag]

Re: Handicaps and Tournament Scores

The flip side to this is that you should be perfectly OK with playing ANY match straight up, no h/c used by either player. After all, if the h/c is based on stroke play only, then how could it be used for a round that is played under such totally dissimilar conditions?

I think the point is that, based on all available information on a certain hole, (e.g. number of strokes received against opponent, how many shots they have played, how many you have played, the lie etc of your ball) you can make completely different decisions in match play as opposed to stroke play.

for instance, in a general match-play situation, player A has stiffed his 2nd shot to a par 4 hole that is tucked away just over a bunker and has a gimme birdie. Player B, who would normally have just played to the center of the green and two putted for par in a stroke play situation, is forced to try a higher tarriff shot to get it closer so he has a better chance of birdie.
Of course that decision is entirely Player B's to make, however, in match play his calculation of risk is different to that of stroke play. If he chunks it into the bunker then it just means the hole is lost. In stroke play it may cost him 3 shots.

for me, in match play, each hole is its own seperate competition and is independent of every other hole in that sense. In stroke play, the 18 holes is the competition, you have to manage accordingly.

[rulie]

Re: Handicaps and Tournament Scores

Interesting... There's an assumption that every player every time tries his best as would be expected in a stroke play competition. When for the vast majority of players, they don't: often many are playing a casual, non-competitive game, don't intensively study a putt or check the wind or exactly determine the yardage.

The handicap system is about the best in sports (maybe bowling?) that allows players of unequal ability to compete. But golf is not always played in a competition.

And for the vast majority of players, these things are not important to the success or failure of their game.

In North America, the handicap systems require that both stroke play and match play scores are entered for handicap purposes.

[blftotoo]

Re: Handicaps and Tournament Scores

Thing OUR system is confusing...

http://www.englandgolf.org/page.aspx?sitesectionid=633&sitesectiontitle=2016-2018+CONGU+Handicapping+System

[wlorcb]

Re: Handicaps and Tournament Scores

Interesting... There's an assumption that every player every time tries his best as would be expected in a stroke play competition. When for the vast majority of players, they don't: often many are playing a casual, non-competitive game, don't intensively study a putt or check the wind or exactly determine the yardage.

The handicap system is about the best in sports (maybe bowling?) that allows players of unequal ability to compete. But golf is not always played in a competition.

But you would also be trying your best on every shot in a match as well, except when you are out of the hole and the h/c system accounts for that.

[wlorcb]

Re: Handicaps and Tournament Scores

I think the point is that, based on all available information on a certain hole, (e.g. number of strokes received against opponent, how many shots they have played, how many you have played, the lie etc of your ball) you can make completely different decisions in match play as opposed to stroke play.

for instance, in a general match-play situation, player A has stiffed his 2nd shot to a par 4 hole that is tucked away just over a bunker and has a gimme birdie. Player B, who would normally have just played to the center of the green and two putted for par in a stroke play situation, is forced to try a higher tarriff shot to get it closer so he has a better chance of birdie.
Of course that decision is entirely Player B's to make, however, in match play his calculation of risk is different to that of stroke play. If he chunks it into the bunker then it just means the hole is lost. In stroke play it may cost him 3 shots.

for me, in match play, each hole is its own seperate competition and is independent of every other hole in that sense. In stroke play, the 18 holes is the competition, you have to manage accordingly.

While what you say is true, do not forget that our h/c systems are different.
And while it is true that sometimes your opponent may make a shot that would have you play something that ordinarily you would not, I think it is very unlikely that this would occur more than once or twice a match, which is not going to affect your score for h/c purposes all that much.
The best match player ever, Bob Jones always ignored his physical opponent. His match was with 'old man par', the relentless pursuit of which caused many a physical opponent to wither away.

[blftotoo]

Re: Handicaps and Tournament Scores

But you would also be trying your best on every shot in a match as well, except when you are out of the hole and the h/c system accounts for that.

Except as someone noted above... When you try a more difficult shot than you would normally because of your opponents situation.

Regardless of the system you always get the guy who "Never played this good before", which always seems to happen every time he is in a competition against strangers.

[stevedimebag]

Re: Handicaps and Tournament Scores

Thing OUR system is confusing...

http://www.englandgolf.org/page.aspx...capping+System

Honestly, I would say the CONGU system is far from confusing. It is very clear in that you play competition rounds and those are the scores that affect your handicap. It is possible to submit non-competition rounds for handicap purposes but you have to declare BEFORE your round that you intend to do this.

All other golf is 'non-counting'. Mucking about with friends, match play, skins, whatever you want.

[rulie]

Re: Handicaps and Tournament Scores

Honestly, I would say the CONGU system is far from confusing. It is very clear in that you play competition rounds and those are the scores that affect your handicap. It is possible to submit non-competition rounds for handicap purposes but you have to declare BEFORE your round that you intend to do this.

All other golf is 'non-counting'. Mucking about with friends, match play, skins, whatever you want.

That's fine and understood for the system you operate under. Just recognize that the North American handicap system is different than the UK, EGA and Australian systems, and the requirements of each are different. No system is perfect, even though everyone is working towards a better system.

[wlorcb]

Re: Handicaps and Tournament Scores

Honestly, I would say the CONGU system is far from confusing. It is very clear in that you play competition rounds and those are the scores that affect your handicap. It is possible to submit non-competition rounds for handicap purposes but you have to declare BEFORE your round that you intend to do this.

All other golf is 'non-counting'. Mucking about with friends, match play, skins, whatever you want.

What if the club competition is match play? Or is the system set up to only use stroke play competitive scores?

[wlorcb]

Re: Handicaps and Tournament Scores

Except as someone noted above... When you try a more difficult shot than you would normally because of your opponents situation.

Regardless of the system you always get the guy who "Never played this good before", which always seems to happen every time he is in a competition against strangers.

Yes but that happens in stroke play events too.

Think of it this way. If you are the guy who is always having to play the 'hero' shot in the match, most likely you are going to lose, so entering your score is probably not going to count, so enter it anyway.

[abz-pete]

Re: Handicaps and Tournament Scores

Honestly, I would say the CONGU system is far from confusing. It is very clear in that you play competition rounds and those are the scores that affect your handicap. It is possible to submit non-competition rounds for handicap purposes but you have to declare BEFORE your round that you intend to do this.

All other golf is 'non-counting'. Mucking about with friends, match play, skins, whatever you want.

In Scotland, most players are members of clubs (public or private) and have the opportunity to play Medals or Stablefords every week, therefore it's easy to have a handicap based on competitive rounds only. All scores are attested and cards handed in, so the vast majority of players have accurate handicaps.

In Ontario, the choice is either "pay as you play" or relatively expensive private club golf. Neither option gives you the chance to play competitive golf regularly. The handicap system is open to abuse (therefore more talk of sandbagging) but overall, works reasonably well.