Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

[jefflin]

Re: Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

Maybe you might see it as problem, I see it as progress. Having women and minorities in those positions probable was unheard of ten years ago. I am assuming the other executives were not talking down or were derogatory to those that were women or minorities. That means they have earned their positions and will examples for others to follow. Remember, it was only 8 years ago that some didn't think someone black could be president, that a woman had no chance at that position. Someone else said it was "2015" filling his cabinet with women and minorities.

It only takes one to break the mold so others will follow. Take for example Dr. Roger Bannister. He was the first to break the 4 min mile. Before he did it...

"experts from the athletic, medical and scientific community regarded running a sub-four-minute mile as an insurmountable limitation of the human body. After all, the previous world record of 4:01.3 had stood unchanged for nine years.

In the years following Dr. Bannister’s May 6, 1954 feat, hundreds of runners have run sub-four-minute miles (and some runners have achieved the feat hundreds of times themselves). In fact, later in May 1954, John Landy, a miler from Australia, also ran the mile in less than four minutes – lowering the world record for the mile to 3:58.0."

http://www.thekickasslife.com/podcasts/058-what-it-takes-to-win-roger-bannisters-sub-4-minute-mile/

It only takes one to break that barrier for others to follow.

btw, at one point many of the sports leagues also didn't have any minorities either. These things take time.

[Jeffc]

Re: Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

at my work we are well over 50% female in terms of staff and the vast majority of managers are women. Some industries lend themselves to different ratios.

[golfinseb]

Re: Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

How do you reconcile that with a unionized environment where seniority is the measuring stick?

What does seniority have to do with the hiring practices? People fail to understand that unions and seniority are all about equality. Seniority merely protects based on years of service, it is independant of any other attribute.

[ace in the hazard]

Re: Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

What does seniority have to do with the hiring practices? People fail to understand that unions and seniority are all about equality. Seniority merely protects based on years of service, it is independant of any other attribute.

It's hilarious that you can't see the hypocrisy of supporting unions while saying that hiring (and presumably promotions and job retention) should be a meritocracy.

And that doesn't even get into the fact that unions have been shown to be predominantly white and male.

[dmcdam]

Re: Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

What does seniority have to do with the hiring practices? People fail to understand that unions and seniority are all about equality. Seniority merely protects based on years of service, it is independant of any other attribute.

Oh come on. Two members applying for the same position, seniority wins every time over merit.

[kzod]

Re: Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

To the contrary, the basketball analogy is right on point (no pun intended). Yes, playing pro basketball is based on skill and physical ability, just as being in business is based on skill and mental ability. In both cases, people either have the skills and abilities, or they don't. Further, many business professionals dedicated themselves to getting a quality education and working hard in order to succeed in their chosen careers. Given this, how is this unlike the young black males who dedicate themselves to playing and practicing, getting athletic scholarships and playing in the NBA?

Is it your underlying assumption that to play in the NBA one must have exceptional natural talents therefore domination by one minority is acceptable, but given the appropriate opportunity just about anyone can succeed in business therefore any demographic imbalance is the result of discrimination?

Oh c'mon I'm about as racist as a modern guy should be (grape soda? check, Watermelon? check) and even I'd admit that visible minorities need a leg up to get equally noticed. Us white guys hold a lot of negative stereotypes. It's easy to write off black kids as a group since many of them don't value getting an education and idolize thugs in the NBA and the drug culture of all the psycho Rap stars. But, then again I know a ton of white kids who do the same thing and are able to bounce back and get a fair shot in life.

[xrox]

Re: Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

IMO optics and numbers are a faulty metric. But that is how people like SeanFTW think. That is how many companies think. Discrimination (sex, race, handicap, looks, or whatever) is a human flaw that is taking time to get better. It seems our best defence against it is to discriminate?

[Leftygolfer30]

Re: Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

I just got home from a presentation today with a group of upper management, executive types, and I right off the bat I noticed something strange...

There were a total of 41 people in the room, including my team of 5 (not upper management/executives). Out of those 41 people, 2 were women, and 5 were non-white males. The rest were all white males. 34 of them in a room of 41. In addition to that, 2 of the 5 non-white males were on our team. I won't name the industry of the people in the room, but jobs ranged from account executive, sales, IT, etc.

There was a thread here not too long ago, about job equality. Many were arguing that there already is job equality, and that women and minorities have just as much opportunities as white men. Those same people complaining about how white men have it the hardest, blah blah. This room proved to me that we have a very long way to go.

I'm not sure what the point of this post is, but I wanted a place to write about this and hopefully spark a discussion. Plus, given the current political situation, I think it's fairly relevant to mention.

Could those skewed numbers have something to do with the fact you're living and working in Montreal now?

I don't know the exact numbers and I'm not saying Montreal is discriminatory but it isn't it less culturally diverse than a city like Toronto?

[SeanFTW]

Re: Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

Could those skewed numbers have something to do with the fact you're living and working in Montreal now?

I don't know the exact numbers and I'm not saying Montreal is discriminatory but it isn't it less culturally diverse than a city like Toronto?

Nah, the people in the room were from all over. About half American, half Canadian.

[Cyrus]

Re: Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

Depends on the industry, some are ahead of the curve and some are behind. The union argument is ludicrous as well as the NBA.

[bogeytrain]

Re: Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

A read of John Chen's bio, CEO of Blackberry, will shed some light on what senior management would be looking for.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/the-man-who-answered-the-call-to-save-blackberry/2016/05/20/8799b86c-1b93-11e6-8c7b-6931e66333e7_story.html

Other prominent non-Caucasians in the corporate world include Premier Watsa, head of Fairfax Financial, who is considered the Warren Buffet of Canada and sits on many corporate boards.

Bharat Masrani, is the CEO of TD Bank, an industry which has been known to promote a certain pedigree.

[golfinseb]

Re: Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

It's hilarious that you can't see the hypocrisy of supporting unions while saying that hiring (and presumably promotions and job retention) should be a meritocracy.

And that doesn't even get into the fact that unions have been shown to be predominantly white and male.

Oh come on. Two members applying for the same position, seniority wins every time over merit.

Clearly you both want to bash unions without facts. It has been my experience that merit outweighs seniority when promoting in a union. You realize that it is the employer who chooses who gets promoted right?

As for unions being predominantly white male, everything has been predominantly white male. That's why this post exists, I'm seeing change in union workplaces just as much as non union.

I know for a fact that many trades unions support programs that encourage access and training for underfunded groups. The groups are ethnically and socially diverse. Many of the people from these groups go on to enjoy the same blue collar job I enjoy in the same union I am in. I never experienced anything like this when I worked in the non union environment. I certainly do not have all the answers but I've experienced whatb I've experienced and it is far different than the picture many on here would have you believe.

Let's not confuse the issue, and let's try to keep your bias towards unions seperate.

[ace in the hazard]

Re: Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

Clearly you both want to bash unions without facts. It has been my experience that merit outweighs seniority when promoting in a union. You realize that it is the employer who chooses who gets promoted right?

As for unions being predominantly white male, everything has been predominantly white male. That's why this post exists, I'm seeing change in union workplaces just as much as non union.

I know for a fact that many trades unions support programs that encourage access and training for underfunded groups. The groups are ethnically and socially diverse. Many of the people from these groups go on to enjoy the same blue collar job I enjoy in the same union I am in. I never experienced anything like this when I worked in the non union environment. I certainly do not have all the answers but I've experienced whatb I've experienced and it is far different than the picture many on here would have you believe.

Let's not confuse the issue, and let's try to keep your bias towards unions seperate.

I think unions served a purpose in the past and I'm not saying that there is not still place for them today in limited situations. That aside, saying that promotions within unions are based on merit, even if were true, ignores the other side of the equation...retention. Can you honestly say that unions don't support keeping dead weight afloat? I know union members who brag about being untouchable. I worked in union shops to pay my way through school and the senior guys were half cut by friday afternoon, barely bothering to hide it. Is that a meritocracy? Because it seems more to me like saying "Everybody deserves a fair shot at a job...unless it's my job".

[ManFromMoffat]

Re: Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

Such situations take a long time to level. For example, in the late 70's, I was in engineering school and out of a total undergrad population of about 2,000 there were only about 5 black students, and less than 100 women. Orientals and Jewish students are disproportionately represented. So this unevenness will propagate through normal career progression. Now I guess the different groups are more evenly represented, but will take years to work itself through.

I also happen to be an engineer ('87 grad) and agree with this.

Also, when I see a political caucus made up of say 30% women and then the cabinet is 50% women, I wonder if the cabinet is likely of sub-standard quality. But then I also wonder if maybe women in general are more likely to be civil, have better judgement and be better suited to work collaboratively with other people and so we're no worse or better off ...

[golfinseb]

Re: Equal Opportunity? Not so sure...

I think unions served a purpose in the past and I'm not saying that there is not still place for them today in limited situations. That aside, saying that promotions within unions are based on merit, even if were true, ignores the other side of the equation...retention. Can you honestly say that unions don't support keeping dead weight afloat? I know union members who brag about being untouchable. I worked in union shops to pay my way through school and the senior guys were half cut by friday afternoon, barely bothering to hide it. Is that a meritocracy? Because it seems more to me like saying "Everybody deserves a fair shot at a job...unless it's my job".

Times have changed, I hate to say it but your view of unions and the workforce is out of date. I believe most workplaces have been working hard to eliminate that type of behaviour.