The chaos that is a gun fight

[Marty Canuck]

there is some confusion about the guns the ladies used. nobody seems to know for sure as yet.
According to some pro-gun sites.,the mother had a J-type(.38 snub-nose special,a revolver with a 5 shot cylindrical magazine) Her daughter likely used a Beretta 70 ACP(automatic colt pistol) this comes in .32ACP, .380ACP and .22LR bore.

Really doesn’t matter what they had. They didn’t know how to use them properly and are both lucky they did not end up dead.

[Ignatius Reilly]

there is some confusion about the guns the ladies used. nobody seems to know for sure as yet.
According to some pro-gun sites.,the mother had a J-type(.38 snub-nose special,a revolver with a 5 shot cylindrical magazine) Her daughter likely used a Beretta 70 ACP(automatic colt pistol) this comes in .32ACP, .380ACP and .22LR bore.

That's one of the funnier aspects of that event.

As if the gun models are relevant to the broader issue

[bl8d]

^^^^???what is the broader issue? That they bothered to engage in a gun fight with a robber ?

To the pro-NRA the model of gun is very relevant.
There are Pro- NRA vids on YT who indirectly slag the ladies for - not shooting till he drops, not having a fast reload clip type gun, and of a large enough caliber to put him down permanently, and lastly for not having done a course on how to shoot.

BTW these two were not minimum wage employees. Its their family business.

[Bern]

I respect the fact that these ladies had the right to defend themselves, the irony is the robber was leaving and the act of them grabbing firearms from under the counter precipitated further action from the robber. Which resulted in at least 7 shots being fired by the ladies and none by the robber. They shot up their own store and endangered their own lives while the robber was attempting to leave. Given that the robber didn't fire a shot off, who knows if the gun he carried was even loaded.
There are other videos now online that show the vestibule area on the right where the robber drops his shotgun.
The 3:10 mark here shows the 4th shot being fired we couldn't see before and the robber dropping the shotgun and cash as he was trying to flee. The continued shooting actually brought him back into the store.
It's apparent there is video that would show in more detail what the robber was doing when he was initially leaving the store. Why is that not being readily shared?

[Bern]

People were confused by the robber's behaviour re-entering the store repeatedly, so was I. The store has a vestibule area that is shown in the video above, all the doors and windows to the outside are barred except for the one leading back into the store. The clerks actually activated a security system that locked the outside door and the robber in the vestibule, he could not escape. He re-entred the store in order to open the outside door and that is when the shooting began, he attempted to flee again and that's when the mom fired the shots at him when he was locked in the vestibule, that was why he re-entered the store the second time smashing the glass, he was trying to get the door open and flee. That explains his behavior.

Trapping him in the vestibule escalated the situation into a life and death scenario for all three people. I have a harder time justifying the ladies' actions now, much harder.

[Richd]

People were confused by the robber's behaviour re-entering the store repeatedly, so was I. The store has a vestibule area that is shown in the video above, all the doors and windows to the outside are barred except for the one leading back into the store. The clerks actually activated a security system that locked the outside door and the robber in the vestibule, he could not escape. He re-entred the store in order to open the outside door and that is when the shooting began, he attempted to flee again and that's when the mom fired the shots at him when he was locked in the vestibule, that was why he re-entered the store the second time smashing the glass, he was trying to get the door open and flee. That explains his behavior.

Trapping him in the vestibule escalated the situation into a life and death scenario for all three people. I have a harder time justifying the ladies' actions now, much harder.

still wondering what happened to his shotgun

[Pimento Cheese]

So, really, they weren't "defending themselves," they were apprehending a robber. The discussion of this should not be whether people should have guns for self-defence, but whether people should use guns to raise an impromptu constabulary, and whether it is appropriate for citizens with guns to hunt down thieves. And perhaps there is a case to be made for that ... but I don't think any argument in support of that should include a claim of self-defence. This was about punishing a criminal for armed robbery, not defending the store against robbery or the staff against harm.

[Bern]

still wondering what happened to his shotgun

Look at the video in post 34, he drops it in the vestibule area at 3:09.

[Bern]

So, really, they weren't "defending themselves," they were apprehending a robber. The discussion of this should not be whether people should have guns for self-defence, but whether people should use guns to raise an impromptu constabulary, and whether it is appropriate for citizens with guns to hunt down thieves. And perhaps there is a case to be made for that ... but I don't think any argument in support of that should include a claim of self-defence. This was about punishing a criminal for armed robbery, not defending the store against robbery or the staff against harm.

It's not so black and white, yes they escalated the situation by locking him in but it was in a moment of high stress. The robbery for all intents and purposes was ongoing. Personally I would have let the guy leave, locking him in the store with you is just a bad call.

[Ignatius Reilly]

Who fired the first shot?

[Pimento Cheese]

Who fired the first shot?

Han fired first, but we're getting off topic.

[Pimento Cheese]

It's not so black and white, yes they escalated the situation by locking him in but it was in a moment of high stress. The robbery for all intents and purposes was ongoing. Personally I would have let the guy leave, locking him in the store with you is just a bad call.

I disagree with the bolded portion. It seems to me that the robbery was finished, as he was leaving the store, so the danger had passed.

[Bern]

I disagree with the bolded portion. It seems to me that the robbery was finished, as he was leaving the store, so the danger had passed.

The older lady shot first, as far as I could see the robber didn't fire a shot.

I understand your view point but I think it is a grey area. The clerks grabbed their guns and activated the security before the robber had left the second door and then hid behind the cash. They did not actively try and gun down the robber, it was only upon his first return to within a few feet that they started shooting.

[Ignatius Reilly]

Han fired first, but we're getting off topic.

Huh? It's a thread about a gunfight.

Anyways, my recollection was that the mother fired the first shot at the robber.

The robber may have shot out the glass door first.

[bl8d]

It's not so black and white, yes they escalated the situation by locking him in butit was in a moment of high stress. The robbery for all intents and purposes was ongoing. Personally I would have let the guy leave, locking him in the store with you is just a bad call.

we are second guessing these ladies actions, which is laughable. I suppose in hindsight the more civil members of this forum would have calmly asked him to sign a withdraw paper or diffused the the situation with a smart arse remark like, "Excuse me Sir, is that shotgun loaded, or are you just glad to see me? yeah right.